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Cliche Queries In Contemporary Fiction

pbwpbw
edited November 2012 in - Writing Problems
I think an update on cliches and the use of them could be helpful. Language evolves and popular phrases harden into cliches all the time.

Can I use the word 'mouthwatering' in my novel or is it now totally sodden in cliche status and unusable? I am aware it is cliched in menus, recipes and restaurant reviews but is it okay in fiction?

Would any of you care to comment please?
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Comments

  • I think it's alright as long as you don't add '24/7' after it, or 'at the end of the day'. Those two phrases actually make me gag!

    Bleugh (gagging sound)
  • I'm not sure what would be 'mouthwatering 24/7' or 'mouthwatering at the end of the day' but I'll work on it.

    I wanted to say,

    "the mouthwatering star anise"

    At the moment I have "the scrumptious star anise" and I think actually that sounds better. (Mostly FMC finds things "delicious" and really, I have to give her a wider vocabulary.)
  • Ah, star anise. Does that have an aniseed flavour (hence the anise bit)?

    *delves into inner confines of grey matter to find aniseedy adjective*
  • pbwpbw
    edited November 2012
    Yes indeed. It has the same chemical component as our local aniseed plant which I think grows like a grass and has small grass sized seeds. The star anise comes from a tree, Illicium Verum (not to be confused with related Illicium which can be poisonous). It is indigenous to China and parts of Asia and New South Wales, I believe.

    If you google it and pick the wikipedia link it will tell you all about it.

    It really does have the most mouthwatering aroma.

    Aha - mouthwatering aroma - verging on oxymoron here. I like that. Would I get away with it?
  • edited November 2012
    Depends on whether she's inhaling it or tasting it.
  • I'm afraid I do find that a bit cliched.

    It does depend on context though and on the style of novel.
  • edited November 2012
    Well pbw (nice new name btw!), I'd say "mouthwatering" is fine and non-clich
  • Well, just goes to show it's all down to taste!
  • Mouthwatering's an adjective ... isn't it? I wouldn't have thought a single word could be considered a clich
  • I think I'll stick with the "scrumptious star anise" because I introduced the spice itself earlier and I have already shown her reaction to it, so naturally I don't want to show the reaction twice. It's more a reference to how she remembers her first experience of the smell of star anise.
  • And the character may use such clich
  • [quote=danfango]I wouldn't have thought a single word could be considered a clich
  • I have to admit that "munch" is a word I don't like either, and I never use it, either in writing or conversation. It just never occurs to me at all, so no-one will ever find it in my writing, cliche or not.
  • I personally think you should avoid 'mouthwatering' pbw. I think all cliches are to be avoided.
  • I think so. It's never been one of my favourite words, to be honest. I don't think I shall persuade myself now that I like it.

    Funnily enough I love the word 'munch'. In the right context it can be very effective.
  • star anise - hum, not mouthwatering from where I'm standing/sitting
  • edited November 2012
    'munch' reminds me of Enid Blyton stories

    but I don't not like it :D
  • edited November 2012
    i have to admit, if I read mouthwatering in a book, I think, well, in what way? I prefer the actual sensations to be described. This might just be me though, everyone's writing is different! When you've already described it once though, I can see your point in not wanting to describe it again.
  • [quote=polar bear]I prefer the actual sensations to be described.[/quote]

    But if someone's mouth starts watering - surely that IS an actual sensation? Their mouth is producing saliva in response to an aroma, no? And 'mouthwatering' exactly describes that sensation - whether you consider it 'overused' or not.
  • 'the warming licorice flavour brought back happy childhood memories'

    ...bit long maybe ;)
  • edited November 2012
    The pungent explosion . . .
  • edited November 2012
    Edited to delete internal monologue over the spelling of pungent.

    I wasn't allowed to leave this box blank and if I'd left a full stop there would have been an interrogation.
  • Yes. No 'a'.
  • Ah, Heather and Suzie beat me to it!
  • [quote=claudia]But if someone's mouth starts watering - surely that IS an actual sensation? Their mouth is producing saliva in response to an aroma, no? And 'mouthwatering' exactly describes that sensation - whether you consider it 'overused' or not.[/quote]

    That was my logic, too.
  • Okay, let's discuss a 'new' cliche.
    IMHO "Don't get me wrong." has become cliched. It was witty when writers started to use it a few years ago but now it's definitely overused.
  • You're not wrong there, pbw!
  • I don't think I explained very well.

    I meant rather then putting mouthwatering I would describe the exact taste, smell etc. so instead of I bit into a mouthwatering peach, I would put, I sank my teeth through the soft skin, breathing in the musky scent as the sweet flesh, dripping juice, filled my mouth. This is just a hasty example though, so don't pull me up on grammer or re-write it to improve it! If mouthwatering is used to describe the exact physical sensation of your mouth filling with saliva, then it can also be described in a way that paints a picture, or used just as it is! It fits that way, but I wouldn't personally describe an item of food or a smell as mouthwatering, I think more colour can be added in the description to convey the exact taste. But since the item in PBW example has already been described once, it could be a good way of reminding the reader of it a second time without repeating a description! Either way, we all write differently!

    Forgive any errors here, I'm writing on my phone.
  • edited November 2012
    [quote=pbw]Aha - mouthwatering aroma - verging on oxymoron here. I like that. Would I get away with it?[/quote]

    As ones senses of smell and taste are physically inter-linked I don't see a problem with this.

    [quote=polar bear]Forgive any errors here, I'm writing on my phone.[/quote]

    .... and this, only a few years ago, would have been an oxymoron - or at least impossible.

    Edited to add - should 'ones' be 'one's'?

    Times change.
    :)
  • Yes, Lizy - 'one's'.

    I think you can get too bogged down in flowery description. Surely readers just want you to get on with the story?
  • Hi Nell, in answer to your question!

    It's the difference between telling and showing, not so much description but putting the reader in the head of your character, so they feel, taste and touch everything the character does. I like to pretend my reader is blind and I am painting the world of the book for them. You don't want purple prose, but by showing the world of your book it brings the story both to life and makes it believable.

    I really learnt this when reading a published book where the author had written that the character walked into the room and stared at the beautifully decorated room. Well, I couldn't picture it because she never told me what it looked like. How was it beautifully decorated? It jarred me right out of the story - just that one line and I wasn't following some-one's life anymore, I was reading a book.

    It isn’t just in descriptions either, it’s in the speech and the prose, the actions of the characters. I think it was Poe (might be wrong!) who said don’t tell me it’s a hot day, show me sunlight glinting from broken glass. It can just be tiny touches but the difference between showing and telling is vital. It wasn't until I stopped any 'telling,' in my stories, that I started getting acceptances. I used to read slush pile manuscripts for a publishing company and ‘telling,’ stood out a mile. It made the book flat and uninteresting. For me it wasn’t whether ‘mouth watering,’ was a cliché, but was it telling? I think it is, unless it done as PBW did, as a second reference after the description. This is just me though, and other people might do things differently.

    Hope this helps, but if not, feel free to ignore it!
  • Oh, absolutely, PB.

    [quote=polar bear]I think it was Poe (might be wrong!) who said don’t tell me it’s a hot day, show me sunlight glinting from broken glass. It can just be tiny touches but the difference between showing and telling is vital.[/quote]

    . . . which is why I don't think you need every detail about eating something, unless it is relevant to the plot.


    I'm not saying ignore descriptions, but some writers go over the top and add too many. It's like getting your legs caught up in all the pond weed as you're trying to swim to the island in the middle of the lake!

    A good writer will give just enough and hand over to the reader's imagination from thereon in. I don't want to be spoon-fed and told everything as a reader.

    But maybe that's just me.
  • No, I quite agree. My genre, romance, can be quite bad for that, needs to be subtle.
  • [quote=Tiny Nell]I think you can get too bogged down in flowery description. Surely readers just want you to get on with the story? [/quote] [quote=polar bear]t's the difference between telling and showing, not so much description but putting the reader in the head of your character, so they feel, taste and touch everything the character does.[/quote]

    That's exactly it. I've learned it the hard way but I think I'm beginning to understand the 'showing' business on a deeper level these days.
  • At what point does something become a cliche?
  • To me 'scrumptious' when applied to star anise, doesn't sound quite right. You can talk about a scrumptious pudding, a scrumptious chocolate cake or even a scrumptious meal, but star anise is simply a seed that imparts a flavour to food. You'd hardly say scrumptious nutmeg or scrumptious cardamom, for example. Delectable might be a better word - what d'you think?
  • Depends whether the character is saying it, in which case it could be an element of her personality coming through, or the author.
  • [quote=Tiny Nell]an element of her personality coming through[/quote]

    She's seventeen, she runs hot - over-emotional. She's a little too immature for her age (over-protective Dad) until she goes through the turning point of her character arc, when she realises how savage the world of adults can be and she grows up. She's more likely to use a word like 'scrumptious'.

    Her mentor, and the nominated mentor for 'mentor role as defined in The Writer's Journey', who is a much older woman, sophisticated and worldly-wise, would use the word 'delectable'.

    But thanks anyway, neil. it's a valid observation.
  • [quote=polar bear]don’t tell me it’s a hot day, show me sunlight glinting from broken glass[/quote]

    Not sure about Poe, but that sounds like Chekhov.

    [quote=Tiny Nell]Surely readers just want you to get on with the story? [/quote]

    Description (the right kind) which is devoid of cliche, is vital. I loathe, detest and cringe at dialogue-heavy books and threadbare narrative. They get tossed to one side because I want the writer to at least invest the time and effort to SHOW me the scene, the aromas, the colours, the sounds, the background. I want to feel the scene, I want to be part of it, and I want to get wrapped up in the descriptions and the words. I don't want the writer to rely on 'telling' me everything.
  • edited November 2012
    [quote=Red]Not sure about Poe, but that sounds like Chekhov.[/quote]

    It was Chekhov, but this is the exact quote: “Don't tell me the moon is shining; show me the glint of light on broken glass.”
  • This has turned into a fascinating thread.
    Without a doubt - description - the right description - makes writing sing on the page. The Chekhov quote is so perfect. Here's a pic I took recently of moonlight over my bay. Go on... see how inventively you can describe it.

    http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj89/ClaudiaTraveller/Moonlight-in-Fiji.jpg
  • Claudia, this pic has given me an idea for a short story! Can you tell me where the location is and what kind of tree that is in the foreground?
  • Hi Kado
    The location is Fiji - the tree is a species of mangrove. When we cleaned up the beach after a cyclone a couple of years ago, we cleared out most of the mangrove which was badly damaged, but left this one because it's a beautiful feature of our little beach. I could post a daytime pic if it would help - just let me know.

    As for the rest - I hope I haven't killed this thread by inviting descriptions of the picture?
    Here's a description I have already used:

    The moonlight glimmered over the water like spilled mercury.
  • Knew I had that quote completely wrong! Thanks for the correctors, you're quite right, the moment Red mentioned Chekhov I recognised the name!
  • pbw

    Have just found this thread. How about "mouth-pleasing" or "palate-pleasing"? No? Oh, well.
  • [quote=claudia] I could post a daytime pic if it would help - just let me know.[/quote]

    That would be great, Claudia!

    I like your description as well.
  • edited November 2012
    Hi Kado - here's one of the mangrove from more or less the same angle as the moonlight shot:

    http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj89/ClaudiaTraveller/Mangrove.jpg
  • And if it helps your story in any way - reef herons and collared kingfishers use it to perch in and hunt in the shallows. :)
  • edited November 2012
    Wow. Beats the view of an industrial estate I have out my window!
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