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Some editing hints that might be useful

edited August 2013 in - Resources
http://thewritingcafe.tumblr.com/post/52010362554/editing-checklist

Some good info here about how to go about editing and what to look for in your MSS.

Comments

  • Some great information in there, thanks Mrs Bear. For the record, I'm absolutely hopeless with passive voice. I'd willingly pay someone to eradicate it from the face of the earth... and failing that, at least from everything I write. *sigh*
  • Yes, a very good check list. But always be careful about applying rules - think of the sense you are trying to convey. There's one in particular in there which I think needs to be thought about ore fully rather simply being reduced to a "rule"


    'Delete gerunds and forms of “to be” if writing in past tense. Instead of “were running”, write “ran”.'

    "Were running" and "ran" mean two different things:
    "The dogs were running when I got to the track." The race had already started and I arrived as it was in progress.
    "The dogs ran when I got to the track." I got there and then the race started.
  • edited August 2013
    I agree, Eddisbury. It's a useful checklist for things to look out for, but don't blindly delete anything. Yes, too many adverbs will look amateur, but they have their place and it's not necessarily in the bin!

    Also, I would disagree with the 'rule' re numerals - it is far more usual to spell out numbers less than ten and use digits for larger numbers (with exceptions and house style differences as always).
  • I agree, it's not perfect, but it's worth cherry-picking: the notes on character and dialogue are worth reading.
    The prose part would rule out all M&B writers instantly! What, no emerald eyes?
  • This is a good list, but I would add to it with the following that are big turn offs for editors and drive us nuts:

    'Going to' or 'going to be', 'start to' and begin to'. These really grate. Characters should simply do the action, not start to something. Be direct!
  • Generally, I'd agree with that, Melina, but there are occasions when it's probably better to have a character starting to do something - for example, when they don't actually complete the action.

    e.g.

    "Look, I'm sorry," he said.
    She started pulling clothes from the wardrobe and stuffing them into her case. "I'm leaving," she said.
    "Can't we at least talk about it?"

    vs.

    "Look, I'm sorry," he said.
    She pulled clothes from the wardrobe and stuffed them into her case. "I'm leaving," she said.
    "Can't we at least talk about it?"

    The latter implies she's finished packing before her line of speech, whereas the the first version suggests she's talking while she's doing it. Neither is technically wrong, but the writer needs to be sure which effect they want.
  • I know what you're saying, danfango, but as editors, we want direct action. Your version would be rejected because of poor sentence structure. Fiction isn't real life. Characters must be clear in their actions. The first version is not acceptable, but the second one is. It's just poor writing, sorry.

    Also, 'she said' is not required at the end of the description. That's a faux pas that will make every editor cringe.
  • What a really helpful article, Mrs B. I've been looking for a summary like that for years. Thanks for posting it.
  • Thank you Mrs Bear - a useful tool.
    But not, as Eddisbury says, to be followed blindly.
  • Mrs Bear, the StyleWriter4 app is fantastic! I've downloaded the trial version. On the "big novel" I am getting plenty of "Excellent" scores, especially on style.

    *huffs on fingernails and brushes them on lapel*

    Mind you, I still have polishing to do.
  • Thank you Mrs Bear I have sent that info to One Note for my bed time reading.

    It will come in very handy.
  • Excellent - will investigate plot tracking feature; I hadn't heard of that.
  • edited August 2013
    [quote=Melina]Also, 'she said' is not required at the end of the description. That's a faux pas that will make every editor cringe.[/quote]
    And yet, many editors still let it go, as is proved by the half dozen books I pulled from my shelves at random. 'she said' or 'he said' was used prolifically in four of them in the manner described above, all well known authors who have sold many books, in one case, millions of books.
  • [quote=JohnWho63]And yet, many editors still let it go, as is proved by the half dozen books I pulled from my shelves at random. 'she said' or 'he said' was used prolifically in four of them in the manner described above, all well known authors who have sold many books, in one case, millions of books. [/quote]

    Then those editors need shooting, John. They're as bad as the writers!
  • [quote=Melina]That's a faux pas that will make every editor cringe.[/quote]

    Not every editor, then.
    Maybe those who don't cringe should duck. :)
  • edited August 2013
    [quote=JohnWho63]in one case, millions of books.
    [/quote]

    [quote=Melina]Then those editors need shooting, John. They're as bad as the writers!
    [/quote]


    Erm, if a book sells millions, a shot editor wouldn't benefit much from the profit then. :D

    said dora

    It seems the readers who bought the book in it's millions, thought differently to your point above, Melina.

    said dora, again.



    edited to say, I think perhaps what this example shows is what one editor will accept, another won't?
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  • I think the difference here might come from making comparisons between 'genre' - or 'popular' fiction - and the really well written 'literary' fiction. You won't find the same sort of faux pas that Melina is talking about by top literary authors.
  • [quote=heather]Not every editor, then.[/quote]

    To be honest, I believe any editor worth their salt would fail it immediately. NO experienced writer should EVER place dialogue tags into a line that already denotes who the speaker is. If writers don't understand this, or won't, then your novels will continue to be rejected.

    [quote=dora]It seems the readers who bought the book in it's millions, thought differently to your point above, Melina[/quote]

    Obviously. However, I didn't see John post any actual figures of which books this particular error occured in, and how many 'millions' of copies were sold, but I suspect this silly mistake rarely happens.

    [quote=claudia]You won't find the same sort of faux pas that Melina is talking about by top literary authors. [/quote]

    Claudia is absolutely right, you won't, because it's simply not acceptable. I'm not sure why, as serious writers, you would not embrace this, instead of getting a little bit defensive and throwing out reasons that justify it, i.e other writers do it, with books sold in their millions. I'm quite shocked, I need a stiff cup of sketos coffee!
  • [quote=Melina]That's a faux pas that will make every editor cringe[/quote]
    [quote=Melina]I believe any editor worth their salt would fail it immediately.[/quote]

    Not being defensive at all. Just pointing out that the first statement was rather generalised. The second, as an opinion and qualified, is fine.
  • [quote=Melina]instead of getting a little bit defensive and throwing out reasons that justify it, i.e other writers do it, with books sold in their millions.[/quote]


    I don't know if anyone on this thread is getting a little bit defensive, Melina, or even a lot defensive, lol. :)

    Yet I do know meaning and tone can be misunderstood when communication is only written down as in these forums and there's no face-to-face contact and we should all bear that in mind and make allowances.

    Yet what is wrong with justifying the fact some writers use this method? If other writers do it and their work is sold in millions then surely what they are doing is acceptable by many (even if in general the standard is it shouldn't be?).

    What's wrong with not complying with a norm?

    As I've said above, Some editors will accept this, others won't.
  • Worst big name offender in the 'he said, she said' department was PDJames in Death Comes to Pemberley (currently being filmed, by the way). She would frequently start speech with one or the other, until it became really aggravating, especially as I was reading it aloud to Mr Bear. And you can't say she's not a big name (in fact I'm convinced that was the only reason the book managed to find a publisher, because it really isn't balanced or well written).
  • P D James' novels deteriorated until i couldn't read them any more.
  • Yes - and she still had them published, didn't she?
  • I've been using SW4 to check both of my manuscripts. I started on the one still in draft and cringed at some of my style errors. I didn't know! And I guess if you haven't done an academic course in creative writing, you wouldn't know, or else the tutors let stuff go without comment. Mind you, my present tutor is extremely good, but in the limited time of one session a week, we can't line edit everything for up to ten students.

    I switched to my YA novel, which I have published as an ebook, and it pains me to see there are some howlers in there too. Fortunately, the ePublishing platforms permit an author to upload revisions, and I will be able to do it.

    The trouble is, the indie author can't afford the half dozen passes of editing (each with a different function) which a book needs. Anyway, SW4 is immensely valuable, and before I send the next manuscript to my own editor, I shall make sure I have run it through SW4, leaving her free to concentrate on the structural aspects, pacing and general delivery.
  • edited August 2013
    [quote=Melina]NO experienced writer should EVER place dialogue tags into a line that already denotes who the speaker is.[/quote]

    I'm sure this is the case. I read the thread and checked out what Suzanne Collins does in her Hunger Games book 'Mockingjay', which is written in first person, present tense, and there's a proliferation of tags, because there are often a group of people in the scene and the speaker needs to be defined where there would be confusion. In Danfango's clip above there seem to be only two people.

    My own style uses these tags to add visuals or to split up the dialogue for emphasis or timing reasons. Thus:
    “He may be high and mighty now, Steve,” she declared, “but we shall see.” She turned towards the elevator, her nose leading firmly forward. “Damien,” she announced, “my home is on the fourteenth floor.”
    Maybe I should cut them out.

    Editing to say: Now that I see my own quote above, the two tags could go and it would make no difference. In fact it would probably be better.
  • [quote=dora]I don't know if anyone on this thread is getting a little bit defensive, Melina, or even a lot defensive, lol.
    Yet I do know meaning and tone can be misunderstood when communication is only written down as in these forums and there's no face-to-face contact and we should all bear that in mind and make allowances.[/quote]

    Not a lot defensive, dora, just a teensy bit defensive. But perhaps I should try to make myself more clearly understood with danfango's original examples and a better explanation. A dialogue tag identifies who is the speaker:

    "Look, I'm sorry," he said.
    She started pulling clothes from the wardrobe and stuffing them into her case. "I'm leaving," she said.
    "Can't we at least talk about it?"

    This is incorrect because SHE SAID at the end of the sentence is unnecessary. It is quite clear the woman is speaking; this is achieved by placing action prior to the dialogue.

    "Look, I'm sorry," he said.
    She pulled clothes from the wardrobe and stuffed them into her case. "I'm leaving.'
    "Can't we at least talk about it?"

    This is correct.

    Dwight's example is also incorrect: “He may be high and mighty now, Steve,” she declared, “but we shall see.” She turned towards the elevator, her nose leading firmly forward. “Damien,” she announced, “my home is on the fourteenth floor.”

    'She announced' is completely redundant because Dwight has already identified the speaker. Simply take out 'she announced' and hey presto, grammatically correct sentence.

    Adding a 'she said/he said' etc, even though you've identified who the speaker is really shows bad writing skill.

    [quote=dora]Yet what is wrong with justifying the fact some writers use this method? If other writers do it and their work is sold in millions then surely what they are doing is acceptable by many (even if in general the standard is it shouldn't be?).[/quote]

    It isn't a method. It's bad writing. If writers want to do this then they really ought to go back to school. If these errors slip by an editor's nose and make millions, well good for them, but the writer hasn't set a good example, have they?

    [quote=dora]What's wrong with not complying with a norm?[/quote]

    Because when it's the accepted convention you comply to the norm. If you are a bestselling author with plenty of titles to your name, and a few million in the bank, then I'm sure you and your editor can change such conventions as you wish. If you are a writer trying to get on the published ladder and making yourself heard, then conventions are there for a really good reason!
  • Melina, you're an angel. It makes sense to me and I'm going to incorporate this into the re-edit programme on my novel.
  • This is turning into a very interesting thread.
    Melina, you are obviously an experienced and knowledgeable writer - your input on threads like this is most welcome!
  • Melina, I take your point about the "she said" speech tag, although I'd say it was unnecessary rather than wrong. Writers have their own styles regarding speech tags and you'd have to look at that exchange in context to know whether or not it fit with the general way the rest of the story was put together. Raymond Carver, who fits most people's definition of a successful literary author, tagged almost every line of dialogue (at least in the stories I've read), regardless of whether there's associated action. That was deliberate, and he worked with his editor to achieve that specific style.

    In fairness, these days it is more common to pare down speech tags to a minimum, and if I'd written that scene I would probably drop the "she said" during the edit.

    However, I disagree with your comments on the first of my examples using the "starting to" construction. You appear to be coming from the point of view of saying that both versions are trying to describe the same thing, whereas the point I was making is that they don't.

    [quote=Melina]Characters must be clear in their actions.[/quote]
    This is key - so the writer needs to be absolutely certain of the action he or she is describing. If the woman finishes packing her case before she speaks, use the second version; if she speaks while she's still doing it, use the first - or find a different way to describe her actions.

    You can't simply say one version is correct and the other is "poor writing" because each describes a different set of circumstances. It's a subtle distinction, but it's important, and imposing black-and-white 'rules' on writing in order to stamp out those subtleties might make editing easier, but robs some of the meaning from the text.
  • [quote=danfango] Raymond Carver, who fits most people's definition of a successful literary author, tagged almost every line of dialogue (at least in the stories I've read), regardless of whether there's associated action. That was deliberate, and he worked with his editor to achieve that specific style.[/quote]

    That's because he's a well established writer. He can adopt a nouveau riche approach to writing without being frowned upon too much. What I am saying is that writers should stick to convention and stay within the accepted rules until such time they and their editors can experiment. I cannot implore potential authors enough to do that if they want to increase their chances of acceptance rather than rejection. As an editor, I would reject a potential novel on this basis, because it tells me the author cannot control dialogue basics.

    [quote=danfango]You appear to be coming from the point of view of saying that both versions are trying to describe the same thing, whereas the point I was making is that they don't.[/quote]

    On the contrary, it it clear what is required. Both versions differ in construction. One version is correct, the other is incorrect.

    [quote=danfango]This is key - so the writer needs to be absolutely certain of the action he or she is describing. If the woman finishes packing her case before she speaks, use the second version; if she speaks while she's still doing it, use the first - or find a different way to describe her actions.[/quote]

    Then first example should be cut. As stated, 'starting' to or 'beginning to' etc, should not be used. In fiction, characters either do something or they don't.

    I don't say this to provoke or offend people. I can only be brutally truthful. If you find an agent or editor that doesn't mind all that and still wants to publish your novel, then please do carry on. I merely offer such advice on the basis it might help writers find publication for their novels. I love writing, mostly poetry, but I do it for the love of it because, as strange as sounds, I don't have that special 'spark'. My experience and knowledge and training has always been in publishing, and I can only go on industry standards.
  • No offence taken - I'm happy to agree to disagree on this one!
  • pbwpbw
    edited August 2013
    This thread has given me invaluable advice. Since it started, I have reviewed every dialogue tag in Far Out and taken most of them out. If I had used them for pacing I found another way. I have also addressed other style issues which I didn't know about, or which I had forgotten.

    It's a strangely complex business, learning all the aspects of writing fiction.

    I find myself on another level, which I didn't know existed (and goodness me I already have a lot of research under my belt). It's a bit like when the plane climbs through the cloud cover and you think, "Ah ha, is that how it is up here?"

    I think I have a much more professional book now, with Far Out. I think the new revision gives a better reading experience.

    I hope so.

    Thanks to everyone for the editing tips. They don't teach enough of the editing side in creative writing classes, in my opinion.

    I have a book called "Edit Yourself Into Print" which is a good one, and a few others, but it can be really hard to track down the tuition you need.
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