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Viewpoints in the 3rd person

edited January 2006 in - Writing Problems

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  • I have what you would call 3 main characters in my novel. They are all from the same family (Mother, Father and Son). From these 3, I have 1 who is the absolute main character if you know what I mean. From beginning to end, I would only really want to tell the story through these characters. That would mean I had 3 viewpoints throughout. But the thing is, I have other characters in my story, and whilst they don't play as important a role as the main 3, they are necessary.

    When I have a scene involving one of the lesser characters, is it imperative to have one of my main characters with him? I wrote a scene with one of my lesser characters (his name is Owen), and he is a young car salesman. He is trying to sell a useless car to an interested customer. Last night, reading over the work I've done, I came to thinking this scene might be unnecessary. I use the viewpoint of Owen throughout, but he is not a main character.

    To give another example, a scene involving my absolute main character (Samantha) shows her to be in a struggle, where she ends up being assaulted. I used this line (and others similar to it) during the assault:

    'Danny looked at her with contempt.'

    What I think I should have done is something like this:

    'Samantha saw his eyes, and they were filled with hate'

    Granted, that's not a particularly good line of narrative, but is that what I should be doing? I find myself very easily describing things through characters other than my main 3.

    Any advice on this would be great. Thanks.
  • I suppose the danger is that if you have too many viewpoints it could become confusing.  I am currently reading a Tess Gerritsen novel where she writes from the viewpoint of both main characters and also, when dealing with ancillary scenes and characters, from an omniscient viewpoint, it is very effective but I suspect difficult to get used to.  Maybe if you wrote a few chapters and then asked an avid reader to have a look at them and give you their opinion, it can be done but I think it has to be dealt with carefully.  Good luck!!!
  • Schumi, I've played with viewpoint a lot. Six unpublished blockbusters are as follows: 2 first person (female), 2 first person (male), 1 third person, 1 first person (all ages, both sexes). Plus one that will never bust any blocks, mostly third person, partly first (female). I like first person because it stops me playing God with my own creations - and because it avoids the problem you describe.

    Both third person efforts have involved going over (and over) reducing the viewpoint changes. Changes within a paragraph are almost certainly unacceptable and can be avoided as in your second example - the second version of which looks much better to me. Changes from chapter to chapter work well if clearly signalled (my multiple first person one is a different narrator with each chapter change) but can make cliffhanger chapter endings difficult. For third person, I have found it useful to have a hierarchy: if A is on stage, it is their viewpoint; if not, then we enter B's head and so on.

    The main thing, I think, is to avoid entering a head for a one-liner. It can almost always be better done as you showed. Mary Wesley could do one liners without letting the reader down; I can't.  Nor can J K Rowling, so I'm in good company.

    Lixxy's advice is good - especially if you have read it out loud, very critically, yourself first. You could also try reading a chunk to a writing group.

    The best of luck with it. However you solve it, have fun getting there.
  • As long as it is distinct whos viewpoint it is it shouldn`t matter too much. But only if it is essential should you have more than three. I would probably limit it at one or two just because it gets a bit tricky for the reader. The main protagonist doesn`t have to be present in every scene if it is 3rd person narrative.
    Good Luck
  • My main protagonist won't be in every scene, but will obviously play the biggest role in the story.

    Is writing from an omniscient point of view in certain parts a bad thing? I see the main negative point, in that it distances the reader from the characters. It's tricky because I have two other characters that don't play the biggest roles, but they are vital to the story. Indeed, one of those characters, called Danny, is the person who assaults my main character, Samantha. He will figure throughout the story, although not as a main character. So in that sense, showing any parts of the story through his eyes would probably be wrong.

    I'll keep on writing to see where I end up.
  • Hi Schumi,

    It would be very interesting to occasionally 'get inside the head' of your Danny character: his motivation for assaulting Samantha etc. Obviously, in those circumstances, Samantha will be looked on sympathetically and will come over as the main character, but well handled I can't see a problem with seeing things through other characters eyes.

    Also, I hope you don't mind me hijacking your thread Schumi, but I have a viewpoint query of my own!  Would there be a problem with having different TYPES of viewpoint in the same novel.  One I am working on has 3 main characters: the female lead, her best friend and the leads love interest. I want to write the lead character in first and the other two in third. There is a reason for this which becomes apparent later in the story. The first two chapters I've roughed out are in the lead characters and then the love interests view, and they overlap slightly, so you get a (little) repeating of info, although through the two different characters. Would that make it too confusing? I haven't heard of any novels that have done this. Any help greatly appreciated.
  • Loftus Lady have you read "The Other Side of the Story" by Marian Keyes it deals with three main characters looking at it from each of their view points. I read it a while ago though so can`t remember exactly what the style was but think it was 2 third person and 1 first person yet delt with the three womens stories. its a good read too. I have heard "Cloud Atlas" by David Mitchell
    also plays with narrative however I have not read this yet it should be interesting and full of inspiration. Hope this helps.
  • Loftus lady, just re-read your post, I did a similar thing (repeating part of the story in different viewpoints) for an assessed piece at uni and this was heavily criticised as my lecturer said the reader doesn`t want to hear it twice. If the reader knows both characters well enough (and they should do) they can figure out how the other character can see their version of events. However, that is only my lecturers opinion, my friends loved my piece. I suppose it depends on your audience, plot, characters and what bit of the story that your repeating. If it is central to moving the story forward then keep it in. Does anything change if you delete it? Everything should contribute to the conclusion.

    Hope this is a bit of help and not too confusing. I have confused myself anyway! Good Luck. xx
  • Thanks Pink Princess. I'll check out the books you mentioned.
    As far as the repeating goes, it's part of the same scene in two consecutive chapters - so overlapping a bit - but seen through the other characters eyes. Yes, it is repeating, but you do see how the two characters perceive (sp?) the situation, each-other and themselves (they are both nervous as it's the first time they meet, but one is more nervous than the other). As it's right at the beginning I think it helps to 'introduce' them. I'll probably try it with and without the 'repeat' but I'm already pretty sure I which version I'll prefer!
  • There's nothing at all wrong with writing from an omniscient point of view. It's just that I'm unhappy doing it myself unless it is the only way.

    Being in Danny's head when Samantha is not around would give you the scope to show the difference between how he is thinking and how Samantha is. You could say, for instance, "That was the last straw. There's just so much of this sort of thing one man can take." etc to bridge the gap between 1st and 3rd person.

    Also, major minor characters such as Owen can have their day (or few minutes) in the same way.

    I think we're all saying we should do what the writer and the story need. Reading critically and getting others to do the same is a big help. Trying another approach when we're not sure is another.

    Enjoying and learning from the experience is important too.

    The fact that you're asking these questions suggests you have some strong characters here. A good omen for the result.
  • There is a great deal of good advice here which I agree with, however if your eventual aim is publication, look at it from the publishers viewpoint. It is highly likely that your manuscript will be read by someone who has a large pile of them to get through and who would rather be doing something else. These people are not looking for a reason to publish your book, they are looking for a reason to reject it so they can get on with the next one in the pile.
    Playing with narrative can be very effective and it can be an intersting exercise, but if it is not done well it can be very irritating and get you consigned to the 'no pile' very quickly. You have to be ruthless. Nothing goes in unless it enhances the text. Not a change of narrative, not a paragraph or explanation, not a word.
  • Hi Dee,

    I was interested in something you said in your last post:

    "Being in Danny's head when Samantha is not around would give you the scope to show the difference between how he is thinking and how Samantha is. You could say, for instance, "That was the last straw. There's just so much of this sort of thing one man can take." etc to bridge the gap between 1st and 3rd person."

    When you say it bridges the gap between 1st and 3rd person, what exactly do you mean? I apologise if that sounds ignorant in any way, it's just I'm not entirely sure.
  • Point of View is a tricky concept and one with which all fictions writers have to do battle:  The Creative Writing Coursebook (from University of East Anglia) offers excellent advice.  Published by Macmillan (www.macmillan.com) ISBN 0-333-78225-9.  It cost £14.99 when I bought a copy a couple of years ago. 

    Be very careful if you attempt to use multiple viewpoints as it is so easy to confuse the reader. 

    David Lodge has used multiple viewpoints very successfully in his novel 'Thinks'. 

    Hope this is of help.
  • http://www.emints.org/ethemes/resources/S00001364.shtml

    loads of info on viewpoint at this website
  • I have an example of what I think is a change in viewpoint. Here is an extract from a book I am reading, entitled The Painted Veil by W. Somerset Maugham:

    "She felt that she could not hold on to her self-control for another moment. She walked swiftly to the door and let herself out before he had time to move from his chair. Townsend gave a long sigh of relief. He badly wanted a brandy and soda."

    Is the last sentence a change in the viewpoint? I think it is, as the paragraph starts off talking about the female character, who is called Kitty in the book. And then it moves onto Townsend.

    Any advice would be great. Thanks.
  • No - I don't think this is a change of viewpoint.  The writer is relating the story in third person and merely telling the actions of each character.
  • It's not just telling the actions of the characters, though.  It's telling how each of them feels, too.  Somehow it doesn't seem quite right to me.
  • It sounds to me like a change of viewpoint. How could we know that Townsend badly wanted a brandy and soda if we were not seeing things from his viewpoint? It’s unusual to change viewpoint in mid paragraph, though. Perhaps the book is written from an omniscient point of view.
  • From what I have read so far (which is about 70 pages), it's not written from an omniscient point of view. The character's feelings are expressed very openly, and doesn't give the feeling of a writer looking down on the characters.
  • Bridging the gap between 1st and 3rd person: When you write in the first person, their thoughts (from immediate reactions to fundamental philosophies) intermingle with the story they are telling. You can do the same in the third person too - you don't have to be objective.

    When you change to another person's viewpoint, you can intermingle their thoughts in the same way. If you don't do it too often, it gives you the best of both worlds. You do have to be careful how often and where you do it (but don't you however you tackle this - or any other - problem?) I guess you also have to ration the switches between 'in a head' and 'omniscient' approaches.

    Amaryllis's point about considering the publisher's reader looking for reasons to reject is a good one. I don't think they will be demanding you keep to a set of 'rules' (quite the contrary) but I do think they will look for confident and effective breaking of rules.

    As with all advice, you need to choose carefully what you accept and what you reject, and be certain in your own mind why you are doing it.

    As I said before: have fun.
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