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Idiom

edited March 2013 in - Writing Problems
I am puzzled by a common expression. Why do people write, for example, 'See if you can't . . .' when they mean 'See if you can . . .'? This and variations are so common as to be normal. Is it correct and if so, why?

Comments

  • I've always supposed that this example is to be encouraging - ie see if you can't put that in the box, sounds a bit like you think think it might not be possible.

    I have never used it though.
  • Assumed it to be short hand for 'See whether or not you can'.

    It's not an expression I use either.
  • As Liz said, it always seems encouraging to me, i.e. someone thinks they can't do something, and you encourage them to see whether that is true rather than just assuming it is.

    However, they do actually mean the same thing as once you know whether or not you can't then you also know whether or not you can.

    Not something I use either.
  • I've heard it from people supplying a service eg 'I'll see if I can't sort that out for you'. It's never seemed very encouraging to me.
  • See if you can't open that door.
    See if you can open that door.

    If you say each sentence aloud, they are different - the second is shorter; can becomes c'n: See if you c'n open that door. It sounds slightly less formal than the first.
    I wouldn't use can't.
    It's like saying, 'I don't suppose you could open that door for me' when the answer is expected to be a yes. A negative way of asking for an expected positive outcome, and an indirect, rather self-effacing way of approaching a simple question.
  • You're not wrong, Mrs Bear. You're not wrong.
  • See if she can't be right.
  • I don't suppose I could be?
  • no you isn't right!!
  • Don't I know it.
  • [quote=Mrs Bear]See if you can't open that door.[/quote]

    Thinking about it, I have said this many times, but have put it a different way, like this; "I bet you can't open that door for me!"
  • [quote=Myklo]This and variations are so common as to be normal. Is it correct and if so, why? [/quote]

    It's a form of phrasing that many people use and don't realise they do it. Is it correct? No, not grammatically anyway, but as a colloquialism, it's as much correct as an accent defines the way we speak, regardless of whether it is 'correct' or not. I know lots of people who use this phrasing, but I've never used it.

    Geographically there are variations on phrasing idioms, so sometimes it depends where you are from and what your age is. Where I live, much older generations speak very differently compared to the younger generation – they are the same accent, but comparably different phrasing.
  • Thank you everyone. That was very helpful. I won't be using the expresion myself!
  • A very valid comment Myklo - I think I'll be aware of that in the future

    I always wonder about: I'll go AND do so and so etc. Shouldn't it be: I'll go to do something etc...
  • [quote=Betsie]I always wonder about: I'll go AND do so and so etc. Shouldn't it be: I'll go to do something etc...[/quote]

    I'm pretty certain that my Oxford English guide agrees with you, but I consider it a grey area. Using "and" in this context implies (to me) "I'll go and (I'll) do". The one similar use of "and" that is not a grey area is "try and" instead of "try to".
  • It's a contraction as OLG says. Sometimes I even put in the 'I'll'.
  • [quote=Mrs Bear]See if you can't open that door.
    See if you can open that door.[/quote]

    The first one sounds like a challenge and could be a useful structure for an interesting subtext running under a conversation.
    The second one is more like a request for help and could indicate another problem.
  • It's all in the context, isn't it, pbw? 'See if you can open that door before I shoot you' would be a challenge.
    Isn't language fun! (Or 'Isn't language fun?' which could be answered either way.)
  • And - isn't it amazing that with body language and voice tone added we'd all know immediately what the speaker meant.
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