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12 mistakes nearly everyone who writes about grammar makes

WebboWebbo
edited November 2013 in - Resources
I've posted this on FB and Twitter too, but thought some of you might not see it there. Worth a read I think:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathon-owen/grammar-mistakes_b_4312009.html?utm_hp_ref=books
What do you think? Sane advice or shaky ground?

Comments

  • MonkeyNutsMonkeyNuts
    Nothing more frustrating than reading know-it-all advice on a blog and/or post and finding it littered with errors.

    I like this writer; he's helpful but shows a lot of humility. There are some very interesting observations in it too.

    I still think there needs to be a balance when it comes to assessing grammar. I think we really need to drop the use of the term 'grammar police', but at the same time accept our language is changing and styles are different.
  • Mrs BearMrs Bear
    He doesn't allow for 'voice'. A narrator, for instance, could use terms like 'irregardless' because it would part of the persona being portrayed by the author.
    Punctuation should assist the flow and readability of the work and support the sense. Lack of, or poor, punctuation can detract from the reading experience. I've read three books in a row recently that had me itching for a red pen button on my Kindle: failure to put accents on French words (the books were set in France), 'leant' used three times in one paragraph where the author meant 'lent', and a complete misuse or failure to use the comma - 'Good, I'll pick you up at 7.00 give me your address', for example. All these are faults that should be corrected - not Grammar Police irritation!
  • OnlinegenieOnlinegenie
    I like Muphry's Law! Never heard of it before but I'm sure it will come in useful some time.
  • MonkeyNutsMonkeyNuts
    Here, here.

    What's the point in writing if we don't polish our work and make it shine?
  • forget-me-notforget-me-not
    Murphy's Law is an American thing, I'm not sure if it's a Scottish or British equivalent, but here we have Sod's Law, which is basically the same thing.
  • OnlinegenieOnlinegenie
    [quote=Mrs Bear]Good, I'll pick you up at 7.00 give me your address[/quote]

    I agree with almost all your post, Mrs Bear, but I know plenty of people who speak in the way indicated in the quote. If I were writing a piece of dialogue it's distinctly possible I would write it like that if it suited the character. Obviously, I would never write narrative in such a sloppy fashion.
  • CarolCarol
    I do think that perhaps that's the issue. People use text speak and workplace jargon as part of their work and social life and they don't see why they can't use it in everything else.
  • WebboWebbo
    And thank you to everyone who resisted the urge to point out my typo in the title. Fortunately (for me) I don't have a time limit on editing
  • doradora
    12 mistakes nearly everyone who writers about grammar makes


    Erm does the title of this thread need a tweak?
  • doradora
    No t hanks to me then,
  • WebboWebbo
    Ah the timing! Still brownie points Dora
  • doradora
    Ah indeeeed, WEbbo, the timing!"

    Just writing me shopping list ...

    *adds Andrex Quilts*
  • CarolCarol
    :D
  • MonkeyNutsMonkeyNuts
    [quote=dora]No t hanks to me then,[/quote]

    There you go - I've slapped ya with a thanks.

    <Winks>
  • snailmalesnailmale
    edited November 2013
    *steers thread back on topic*

    I'm always nervous about commenting on grammar questions in case I end up looking a bigger prairie-hat than usual.
    There will always be someone who has encyclopedic knowledge of every obscure rule the Grammar Police book and be more than willing to share it. Anyway, I'm seventy-seven now, and don't have time or inclination to be pedantic. I just get on and write. I work on the basis that if it looks right and sounds right, it probably is right.
  • Baggy BooksBaggy Books
    I know some successful authors - mainstream - who will openly break the rules.

    Don't make it right, but in an appropriate context a broken rule don't matter.
  • MonkeyNutsMonkeyNuts
    I think all it takes is care and attention.

    Love your work, look after it and make it the best it can be.

    I think rule-breaking is a good thing, but it has to be right.

    Not sure if anybody has ever read Orange Laughter by Leone Ross, but every other chapter contains zero punctuation. Sounds horrendous, doesn't it? However, it reads so well and works. That's because it's fitting to the character and story.
  • OnlinegenieOnlinegenie
    [quote=snailmale]don't have time or inclination to be pedantic[/quote]

    That really depends on what you mean by pedantic.
  • Baggy BooksBaggy Books
    [quote=MonkeyNuts]Not sure if anybody has ever read Orange Laughter by Leone Ross, but every other chapter contains zero punctuation. Sounds horrendous, doesn't it? However, it reads so well and works. That's because it's fitting to the character and story.[/quote]

    There's a thread on here about it (or another written in the same or similar style) - I looked at the free excerpt and found it fascinating.
  • MonkeyNutsMonkeyNuts
    It demonstrated, to me, what a skilled writer Leone is.

    I've read some of her other work and even spent a week on a writing course years ago where she was one of the tutors.
  • Lou TreleavenLou Treleaven
    Nice to see an article on grammar with a bit of common sense and humour. I like the deliberate mistake at the end too!
  • ClaudiaClaudia
    An interesting read. Yes, reasonably sane advice. Thanks for posting it, Webbo.
    I still get caught out on the usage of that/which... and the explanations as to their usage.
  • BillBill
    [quote=Carol]t speak and workplace jargon as part of their work and social life and they don't see why they can't use it in everything else.[/quote]

    yes, my OH, a stickler, complains if I write 'cos' in e mail/text, and the word is in current everyday usage.
    Instead of 'because?
    'Because' is instead 'caused this situation'.
    A lot of our words/phrases are truncated versions of wordier explanations.
    Some would argue that text speak and similar abbreviated terms/words are an evolutionary refinement.

    Not sure about this myself...just an observation...
  • LizLiz
    edited November 2013
    [quote=Onlinegenie]I like Muphry's Law! Never heard of it before but I'm sure it will come in useful some time.[/quote]

    The writer calls it 'Muphry's Law', but it is in fact 'Murphy's Law'. Dear me, a typo.
  • heatherheather
    [quote=Liz]The writer calls it 'Muphry's Law', but it is in fact 'Murphy's Law'. Dear me, a typo. [/quote]

    Not a typo. Muphry's law is a deliberate misspelling of Murphy's law as it relates to someone criticising the work of others and making errors of their own within that criticism.

    [quote=claudia]I still get caught out on the usage of that/which... and the explanations as to their usage. [/quote]

    Me too - I'm forever looking it up but it won't stick!
  • LizLiz
    Thanks, heather, i did not know that… (clearly!)
  • MutleyMutley
    I think it's another of those where you have to know the rules to break them with impunity. I rejected a piece yesterday as being 'too American' in its writing. The author was not happy - but in many ways it was grammatically incorrect for English even though written as many Americans might speak. Sadly, she did not know correct sentence structure, which mean that in writing a colloquial version she could not see where it didn't work for the written word.
  • ClaudiaClaudia
    edited November 2013
    [quote=Mutley]in many ways it was grammatically incorrect for English even though written as many Americans might speak.[/quote]

    This was a problem that cropped up when an American friend of mine asked me to have a look at her writing. In the end, I could only offer advice up to a certain point because of the differences in spelling, sentence construction and style because she was writing for the US market.

    [quote=heather]Me too - I'm forever looking it up but it won't stick![/quote]

    Glad to hear it's not just me then! :)
  • CarolCarol
    I know one of the members at the writer's club who has her books published by one in the US, and on manuscript nights we've learnt a few things.

    Can't think of one offhand, but it was phrasing that we would edit out as awkward and should be simplified, her editor expects her to use as standard.
  • MonkeyNutsMonkeyNuts
    I've been writing for the US market for three months. It's a lot more tricky than I ever thought. Still, educational.

    I like the challenge of change too. It makes me feel very humble. I'd hate to think I ever knew it all, unlike some.
  • Baggy BooksBaggy Books
    I get sent the links to sites that contain errors - of all kinds. I save them because they create useful examples for me to share on Twitter. But it's incredible how people write something - a blog, marketing material etc - and never seem to revisit that work, which is when they might spot their typos.

    So the first thing to learn? Re-read your work!
  • AbsterAbster
    Anyone got any recommendations of a good grammar book to turn to when you just can't remember whether you want a that or a which? I wouldn't mind having a reference book on grammar and punctuation, but I don't want something that is like wading through porridge.
  • CarolCarol
    Have a look a Grammar for Grown-Ups by Katherine Fry and Rowena Kirton.

    [quote=Abster]Anyone got any recommendations of a good grammar book to turn to when you just can't remember whether you want a that or a which?[/quote]

    p169/170...:)
  • LizLiz
    edited November 2013
    i've got loads of grammar books, from Usborne simple children's ones, to David Crystal, 'Fowlers' and the elegant, slim and incomparable volume by William Strunk and E B White (of Charlotte's Web fame) 'The elements of Style' which incorporates grammar and so much more.

    I still mainly Google the answer as when I'm on the computer it's quicker.
  • snailmalesnailmale
    I have 'An A-Z of English Grammar and Usage', by Geoffrey Leech, Benita Cruickshank and Roz Ivanic. I think its mainly aimed at those for whom English is not a first language, which, with me being a Brummie and all, some might consider appropriate.
  • Mrs BearMrs Bear
    I have an Oxford Guide and an Oxford Style Manual. There are websites you can go to, if you haven't got a reference work, but beware - a lot of 'English Grammar' sites are American.
    Try this site to test your knowledge:
    http://www.bristol.ac.uk/arts/exercises/grammar/grammar_tutorial/page_55.htm
  • AbsterAbster
    Thank you :) will have to start my letter to Santa soon and ask for one of these. :)
  • LizLiz
    Yes, the Strunk and White is obviously American but the advice inside is wonderful.

    I would also advise going into a second-hand bookshop reference section - people often seem to get rid of this sort of book and you could pick one up cheaply after looking inside to see if it suits you - after all grammar, punctuation etc. does not really change!
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