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Which is it?

edited November 2015 in Writing

My mind's gone blank. I've read this story so many times. Should it be 'who' or 'whom'?

'Not even Gordon, whom I had yet to tell about my crime.'

Comments

  • Whom cos he's the object of the sentence...I think :S
  • Thanks, kids.

    I thought it was... but you know how you start questioning yourself.


  • ... but you know how you start questioning yourself.
    Aye, and when I start to play both bad cop and good cop then I begin to really worry.
  • Still, it's company.
  • edited November 2015
    Decidedly whom. If you could turn it to say say 'I had yet to tell (it to) him', it's whom.
  • I'm confused by this, and I think it's because in this context 'tell' works differently to other verbs like, for instance, 'speak'.

    Example: "I met Gemma and I gave her my last Rolo."
    Could be written: "I met Gemma, to whom I gave my last Rolo."

    ...and "He wanted to speak to the professor, so he arranged a meeting."
    Could be: "He arranged a meeting with the professor, with whom he wanted to speak."

    No problem with either of those. And with the second version of the sentences you can remix them into a slightly formal but reasonable-sounding question and answer, i.e. :
    To whom did I give my last Rolo? Gemma.
    With whom did he want to speak? The professor.

    But "give" and "speak" are both verbs that (in this context) need a word like "to", "from", "with", etc. to make proper sense. "Tell" is direct, like "kiss" or "punch".

    You'd never ask, "Whom did you want to kiss?" or "Whom punched that bloke?"

    I don't know how far off the mark my logic is here, but I would have said that Tiny Nell's sentence would be either:

    'Not even Gordon, to whom I had yet to confess my crime.'

    or:

    'Not even Gordon, who I had yet to tell about my crime.'
  • Yes, some verbs work differently, Dan, as you say. I think I shall borrow your example where 'confess' is used. It rolls off the tongue better!
  • Happy to help!

    If I'm wrong about how this works and somebody can explain why, that would be great. I feel like I have a reasonable ear for grammar but I never learned the 'nuts and bolts' of it so everything's just based on observation.
  • It's where common usage trumps old-fashioned grammar.
    We rarely, in ordinary speech, use the formal 'to whom'. As a result, that's creeping into written work, too. You have to go with what sounds right to you.
    If, for instance, you are writing a historical novel (or an historical novel, indeed), you may want to use the more correct grammatical form to give a flavour of the speech of the time.
    If you're writing a modern novel, you should stick to what's in common use.
    'Nutsy yelled at the man at whom he was pointing the gun' is never going to work - it's not the flavour of the piece.
    You'd never say 'Whom punched that bloke', Dan, because the first person referred to is the subject, not the object. 'That bloke' is the object - the man on the receiving end of the punch. You could say, 'That bloke, whom the other man punched' - but given that you're using 'bloke', which is informal, you'd use 'who'. 'Who punched that bloke': 'that bloke who the other man punched' - that's how you'd say it, in common everyday parlance, so that's probably how you'd write it, allowing for context.
  • edited November 2015
    What Mrs B said.

    Formal grammar - whom, as it is the object of the verb.

    "She (subject) told (verb) him (object)"
    "He (subject) told (verb) her (object)"

    You would never say "She told he" (unless you are a farmer from the West Country!), so you use whom where you are referring to the object and would use him or her, regardless of type of verb.

    Informal - if it sounds right it's Ok and hardly anyone uses whom in any circumstances now (apart from me and I am a pedant!)
  • I do admit to using whom in conversation when relevant. :\">
  • I feel less alone now :)
  • I do, too.
  • Mrs B has a knack of putting the correct technical grammatical words to my instinctive sense of what sounds right.
    She is soooo much better educated in these matters than I.
  • Thanks all - I see my understanding of it is limited to the way it tends to work with prepositions. The subject/object bit has clearly passed me by! I had a look at the Penguin Writer's Manual and I think I'm up to speed now, although they say "whom" can sound old-fashioned / formal these days. I suppose as is often the case, how closely you stick to what's "correct" will be determined by the tone of whatever you're writing, and the time period in which it's set.

    I'm sure I've got this wrong in things I've had published in the past, but then again I'd tend to avoid a construction like "She didn't know from whom the letter had come", in favour of the more direct "She didn't know who had sent the letter" - "whom had" would sound bizarre, although from the sounds of things it would be technically correct.
  • edited November 2015
    No, I'm afraid it wouldn't! (Sorry)
    In each of your cases above you have a complex sentence, with an 'object clause' following the verb 'know' rather than a simple object.

    She didn't know HIM - simple object
    She didn't know 'from whom the letter had come' - object clause.

    Think of 'The letter had come from him' (Letter=subject, him=object), so 'from whom the letter had come' is formally correct (though I agree that very few people would ever use it)

    But: 'he had sent the letter' - in this case he is the subject of the verb 'sent' and the letter is the object, so 'who had sent the letter' is correct, not 'whom had'.
    There are cases where 'whom had' would be correct (usually in a question and ugly with it!), but not this one!

    (e.g. "I had sent someone to collect the letter"
    "Whom had you sent?"
    "I had sent Dan, as he seemed to be very interested in them." :) )

  • Just look at the trouble I've caused...
  • Ah well, we're used to it... :)
  • I find all this stuff very interesting, but it would be so much easier to get my head around it if my grammar education at school hadn't been limited to just finding out what nouns, verbs, and adjectives are!
  • My grammar education was so long ago I can't remember what I was taught, but clearly some of it has stuck with me. I suspect I have that kind of brain, in the way some people are mathematically-minded.
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