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Bad Language in novels/short stories

PaigeElizabethTurnerPaigeElizabethTurner
edited February 2017 in Writing
Inspired by a post of a fellow TBer, I am interested to hear of readers' thoughts about the growing incidence of bad/offensive language in novels and short stories. I am one who uses it only in dialogue, to create realism in a character. I am also sensitive (I think) to not pushing too much onto the reader for fear of alienating them.
I invite your thoughts . . .
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Comments

  • heatherheather
    A recent book I read used the worst word - once only in the whole book. It's not a word I like, but it was fitting where it was used and nothing else would have had the same impact. So it worked.
    If it's all over the shop it puts me right off.
    I don't use it much at all in my writing. (Unlike in my own potty-mouth language!!)
  • Tiny NellTiny Nell
    edited February 2017
    It all depends on the context, doesn't it, or at least the characterisation. If I was reading a book about the criminal underworld or gang violence, then I would expect it for realism. Even then, overuse can grate.

    I did read a book the other day, however, where a mother used a 'bad' word. It was unnecessary and unbelievable. Any belief I had in the character (which wasn't much as it happens) disappeared.

    I don't tend to use it in my writing. I think once I've written the 'sh' word, and once the 'bl' one. :\">
  • Baggy BooksBaggy Books
    Shucks and blimey?

    I'm shocked.
  • Tiny NellTiny Nell
    My head is hanging in shame...
  • Tiny NellTiny Nell
    My Welsh teacher sent me out of the class when I said 'shucks'.
  • Mrs BearMrs Bear
    *wonders what 'shucks' means in Welsh*
  • Tiny NellTiny Nell
    I think she thought I said something else. As if!
  • PaigeElizabethTurnerPaigeElizabethTurner
    I think she thought I said something else. As if!
    Judging from what I've just read above, I think that must have been Heather!!

  • heatherheather
    Probably
  • LizyLizy
    edited February 2017
    I wrote the F word in a book, but each time I rewrote, it pulled me up short. It was in dialogue and in context, but I changed it to the sanguine word on a fourth run through. I felt it might put off potential agents and - one day - readers.

    I have also written 'I don't effing believe it', which skirts the word but is clear what is meant.
  • LizLiz
    edited February 2017
    When I was young we weren't allowed to say 'blimey' or even 'damn'. My OH wasn't allowed to say 'God' or 'Jesus' an an exclamation, and was prevented from playing with Leslie Kadoo because he did - and Leslie Kadoo had been in possession of Pete's cartoon magazine he drew (reminiscent of the scene in 'Friends') when the friendship was banned and Pete never saw it again. The fact that I can remember all of this story is testament to how many times he tells it, in slightly aggrieved fashion.
  • PaigeElizabethTurnerPaigeElizabethTurner


    I have also written 'I don't effing believe it', which skirts the word but is clear what is meant.
    Yeah, now you mention it, I do soften the tone sometimes with 'friggin'.

    And yes, I remember talk of adults chastising children over using 'God' as an exclamation. 'Don't take the Lord's name in vain,' they said; a phrase perhaps heard by many on here.

  • LizLiz
    I don't think I've heard anyone swear in this village, ever, and I've lived here 30 years. The worst is probably, 'bum' or 'shit'. And even that would make others around laugh.
  • heatherheather
    I don't think anyone in my village has heard me swear - doesn't mean I don't do it at home!
  • PaigeElizabethTurnerPaigeElizabethTurner
    I don't think I've heard anyone swear in this village, ever . . .
    Do you live in England? ~X(
  • LizLiz
    I do. In, apparently, according to the Telegraph, or it may have been the Times... the best village to live in, in the country. I can't deny it. It is somewhat removed form inner city Bristol where i'm sure swearing is de rigeur.
  • LizLiz
    And I don't do it at home, neither and neither do any of my family. Unless they do it on their own... even in extremis. Perhaps if you don't hear it it doesn't spring forth?
  • datco2014datco2014
    I had a book just about to be named Sainsburys book of the month once then whoever made the decisions about such things took the time to read it and realised the F word appeared here and there and dropped it like a hot potato.
  • LizLiz
    Oh, datco!
  • LizyLizy
    I bet your language was a bit ripe then!
  • PaigeElizabethTurnerPaigeElizabethTurner
    I had a book just about to be named Sainsburys book of the month once . . .
    That must have been a REAL let down. Surely it got the initial nod on its merits? Hope you didn't change your writing style because of it!!

  • ana sana s
    It all depends on the context, doesn't it, or at least the characterisation. If I was reading a book about the criminal underworld or gang violence, then I would expect it for realism. Even then, overuse can grate :\">
    Agree. I think today's swear words are limited, unimaginative and reflect misogyny and an unhealthy attitude to sex. Shakespearian swearing was fun, all gods and diseases.

  • LizLiz
    Totally agree. A pox on all those who swear misogynistically.
  • PaigeElizabethTurnerPaigeElizabethTurner
    edited February 2017
    Shakespearian swearing was fun, all gods and diseases.
    And pox on anyone who thinks otherwise!!

    :D
  • KramerKramer
    An early chapter of my (unfinished) story contains quite a few expletives, yet the rest of the story will not.
    A pivotal character in that early chapter uses the F word casually and, in this scene, is extremely agitated and annoyed so the word appears. I use it to get across the characters personality and his "unlike ability".
  • snailmalesnailmale
    edited February 2017
    Introduced 'arsehole' (as in 'you are an') in to my U3A offering last Friday. My audience, mainly elderly ladies, took it on the chin.

    It's the way I tell 'em...
  • Baggy BooksBaggy Books
    Chins, bums, cheeks...

    :O
  • doradora
    So basically, S&M< you shoved your hairy harsh hole in their faces?
    Hope you didn't punctuate your story with a fart.

    I'm not bothered about bad language in fiction, if it's there and it fits wid da characters, etc, then I ain't unhappy. There are some areas in the UK where Effing Hell is used in practically every sentence anyway. Almost as routine as a cuppa tea in da morn innit for some folk.

    Then again, maybe it has something to do with one's breeding. Or lack of it. Or intense inter breeding.

    I can take it or leave it.

    Bad language that is. Not interbreeding.

    There are times I prefer it.


  • Tristram_ShandyTristram_Shandy
    edited February 2017
    Some of my characters curse, which I can't really be doing with, but they insist on it :) If magazine guidelines say no swearing, of course, they get their mouths washed out with soap whether they like it or not ;)
  • boredrobotsboredrobots
    My thoughts on the matter:

    http://stevenchapmanwriter.com/v-is-for-vulgarity

    (from Apr 2011)
  • PaigeElizabethTurnerPaigeElizabethTurner
    Yes, BR, we are of the same mind. Essential elements if used sensibly.
  • cheshirecheesecheshirecheese
    I agree with much of the above. As a point of interest, I assume most of us know that the perceived offensiveness of words changes through time. C**t was once quite an inoffensive word.
  • PaigeElizabethTurnerPaigeElizabethTurner
    C**t was once quite an inoffensive word.
    Huh? Are we thinking of the same word? To which century do you refer? I've been around for a while, and it had always been the word you don't say, let alone print.

  • doradora
    edited February 2017
    Oh dear

    Is there a rule book in existence that you have knowledge of, PET?

    I must be terribly old-fashioned because that is one word I do say on occasion. There are people in this world deservingly called this by me.

    It is also a word I would print if it suited the character to utter it
  • LizLiz
    I wouldn't use it because it is a derogatory term for a woman's body. If you're turning part of a woman's body into a slur to insult someone, the implication is that cunts are disgusting, something that a person wouldn't want to be. That denigrates all women.
  • doradora
    edited February 2017
    I often call people pooheads

    Everybody poos

    Am i insulting the entire human race by doing so?

    I shall continue to call a person a see you enn tee if the face fits just as some people are deservedly called a cock or a prick, etc etc etc

  • heatherheather
    Or calling someone a pr**k is similar. I think the words lose their connection to their original meanings when used as insults.
  • LizLiz
    They are used as insults because of their original meaning - they wouldn't be an insult otherwise, you might as well call someone 'chair' for instance, it wouldn't work.

    To say it has no meaning anymore—or some another meaning separate from gender because it has been made into an insult, is disingenuous at best and just reinforces the culture of misogyny.

    Poo head, poo is clearly revolting. So you are arguing, dora, on my side.
  • LizLiz
    And - we are writers, to say that words have no meaning, or no meaning under the way in which they are being used, is to go against all our craft.
  • doradora
    Gawd darnut! My emoticons aint working

    Is poo revolting though?

    Only this morning I was relieved of the weekend's excess by way of a
    Mmmmmmmmmmmmmaassssssive dump

    Most glorious feeling

    Happy as a piggywinkle in shit I was

  • LizLiz
    Well now, that is the experience of expelling it. THAT would be high on the list of anyone's good events.
  • doradora
    =))

    My emoticons are back on
  • PaigeElizabethTurnerPaigeElizabethTurner
    edited February 2017
    Oh dear

    Is there a rule book in existence that you have knowledge of, PET?
    No, no rule book at all, other than observing the legal standard of what the 'reasonable person' would accept as appropriate. The thread was conceived with reference to 'bad language in novels and short stories'. In that context, I believe the use of some words is inappropriate, but openly concede to using the 'F' word in dialogue. However, as you point out, there may well be 'appropriate' situations in adult conversation that some words might be used.

    I guess this is an 'each to their own' situation, because in in a closed situation, I would never, and have never, referred to a person AS the 'C' word.

  • doradora
    Yes I am a reasonable person and
    I accept there are there are occasions, and not always in adult conversation, when the 'c' word is appropriate.







  • heatherheather
    Have to agree to disagree again Liz.
  • cheshirecheesecheshirecheese


    Huh? Are we thinking of the same word? To which century do you refer? I've been around for a while, and it had always been the word you don't say, let alone print.

    In the 15th century it was used in medical texts, I believe the word cropped up a few times in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales. Spellings varied, including cunte, cownte and - interestingly - quaint. How quaint.
    By the 17th century it was used in a pejorative way.
  • goodsuspectgoodsuspect
    edited February 2017
    We did Rochester's poems at uni, interesting to say the least. 'A Ramble in St. James's Park' is one that sticks in my mind. Personally I like swearing, I prefer to believe the recent spate of articles that say swearing is a sign of intellect.
  • goodsuspectgoodsuspect
    However, in writing you have to play to your your audience. You can't drop the 'c' bomb at People's Friend!
  • LizyLizy
    Never liked the C word, however often I'm told it's no worse than others. Makes me cringe, it does.
  • Baggy BooksBaggy Books
    That's why it's very powerful when used in the correct context.
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