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Moderating

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Comments

  • They're visible to me as well.
  • Yup, they be there.
  • Thanks. I think it's something to do with my account being "special" - lucky me!
  • Webbo, I think the 2009 banner is the one on the page that anyone who isn't logged in can see. So, it'll be people who don't have an account who see it, I'm guessing.
  • Nope, I can see that 2009 banner now, and I'm logged in.
  • Oh yes it's on both, I see now.
  • Thanks Webbo. I think there are times when some gentle moderation could be of benefit to us all. On the whole the threads run very well, but every so often there is a tangent that could do with curbing, or feathers that need to be smoothed.

    I have one worry for you though Webbo. This site is addictive. Do you expect to get any other work done?
  • In case anyone's interested, here are links to two excellent discussions on good moderating habits.

    http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006036.html

    http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010445.html#010445

    Making Light is the blog of Patrick and Teresa Nielsen Hayden, who both work for Tor in America, in very senior roles (I'm not sure of their exact job titles but take it from me, they're significant); and James Macdonald is a multi-published writer.
  • Moderators come from all walks of life - the career or craft is irrelevant.

    From my experience on other forums, the successful ones moderate in moderation.

    We shouldn't see a change on TB. Occasional fireworks are essential. When anyone crosses that virtual line, they're already made aware of it and either throw their toys out of the pram or go quiet for a while.

    I can't think of any recent conflict which would have benefited from external moderation.
  • The reason that there isn't any conflict is because the people who knew what they were talking about have gone. The truth is when anyone crosses the line, they drive away the good members.

    This forum needs moderation, it's already getting to be a joke. Some days I wish Candy was still about - and that is saying something!
  • Oh Stirling do you really think that? There are a lot of contributors on here who certainly have great knowledge about writing and the written word. Many are paid for their work and others write for pleasure.

    Members come and go. I doubt moderation would have changed that.
  • Yes I certainly do.

    The majority who have any decent publishing experience have left because of the nastiness.
  • I've found that any question asked here is well answered by people who have a good body of experience. I don't think I've ever seen anyone's question go unanswered...

    I know Dorothy left for reasons not really connected to nastiness... who else has left stirling?
  • I spent some time here ages ago, and left because I didn't want to have to deal with the negativity I was treated with. I only returned because several members took the trouble to search me out and ask me to return, because they were fed up with the bullies winning.

    I then spent a little bit of time here again, and was once again treated with rudeness and spite. Again, I felt I couldn't be bothered to spend time trying to help when people were so rude to me, and again I was persuaded to return by a few lovely people.

    I know several other publishing professionals who have tried to help here, only to be ridiculed and attacked for their views. Not one of them has returned, and every single one of them has advised me to stay away from here. These aren't people who have a tiny bit of experience: these are experienced, brilliant editors and writers who were repeatedly treated with contempt by some of the members here, who got away with their bad behaviour because there was no one around to stop them.

    A few good moderators who have knowledge about the publishing business would have prevented this happening. Instead, this board has precious few professional writers or publishing people here, and has developed a poor reputation.

    I'd like to see that change. Good moderation is the only way it's going to happen, I think. (And no, I'm not angling for a moderator's job here: just in case anyone was wondering.)
  • Crikey. I must have missed that. Why would anyone ridicule a professional? Seems mad.
  • Liz, I should make it clear that my friends didn't come here and announce that they were commissioning editors working for Big Name Publishers: they just joined up and started posting, and gave what I thought was exceptionally good advice. One, for example, pointed out the pitfalls of self-publishing and the difficulties a writer might encounter when taking that route: she was responded to by a self-publisher who, when challenged, answered her questions with outright rudeness and a lot of hostility. I found it very embarrassing. The self-publisher had got a lot of things wrong, but was still insisting that she knew better than my friend who had worked in publishing for more than a decade.

    If my friend had given her real name, and told everyone where she worked, she'd have been a very popular member here.

    Anyway. I don't think any good will come of rehashing all of that: my point is that a knowledgeable and careful moderator could have prevented that from happening by putting an end to the rudeness, and by educating the person who got so much wrong. I hope that's what's going to happen in future.
  • edited January 2010
    Message removed since reading HPRW's latest post. (Sorry, crossed with your last post, HPRW.) Will post a replacement message soon.
  • Rosalie, (and any other interested parties) just a hint, if ever you post something and then change your mind about it, you can always use the edit function to 'whisper' it to yourself. That's presuming, of course, that it's done within the allocated time frame.
  • Reading all the posts, Im reminded of 'can't please all of the people all of the time.'

    Maybe having an 'ask the agent/publisher' thread and defining the other categories a bit more might help. For example, moving threads to the 'right' place a few times might keep us all on track.

    I must admit, I like the 'feel' of talkback. I come on here to chat to other people who write, and ask advice on how they keep motivated etc. It would be a shame to turn talkback into a copy of any other forum. I may be missing the point of this forum a bit, but isnt it supposed to be fun?

    pp x
  • PP, so many of the threads started getting put in Members General Chat because they did not appear in Google. If someone made a legitimate comment about an individual or company we would suddenly find them on TB responding. Legitimate, but it could distract from what the thread was about originally.
    I believe there have been some changes but I don't know which categories beside the members one are non googlable now.

    Generally I think it works well- which is why the moderators have said it will be moderate and not be heavy handed. But with the number using it, it is understandable that some moderation comes in.
  • Thanks Carol, I hadnt realised that about google.

    pp x
  • YES YES YES YES YES YES YeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeS

    2010 does actually exist in Talkback - at last

    Thank you Webbo for changing the banner

    (my life will never, ever be the same :) )
  • HPRW, I'm sure what you say is true, but if we all acted on what you say, we would have to conclude that this forum is worthless and we shouldn't be here. If its reputation is already shot, will moderation fix the problem of lack of expertise?

    Do you see any benefits of Talkback?
  • [quote=Mabh]Do you see any benefits of Talkback? [/quote]

    Was that specifically for HPRW, Mabh?

    Only if you'd like a general idea of consensus, Rosalie has started at thread recently. :) Think you'll find a lot of positives there, that people don't come here just as professionals but as friends, to relax from writing for a while, and to share information about writing (as well as other things.)
  • I see a lot of benefits to HPRW.

    As well as the Talback ones.
  • edited February 2010
    Sorry, I meant, specifically, does HPRW see any benefits in Talkback? Or only if it changes as a result of moderation?

    I did see the other thread, and contributed. I agree with you, Dora.
  • HPRW is a valuable addition to the membership undeniably.

    I was concerned that she said recently that she knew writers and other professionals, who had joined and had been treated badly so didn't stay around.
    I don't mean the following to be taken in anything other than an ordinary comment- there is no hostile intent with it.

    Many years ago we had a few people who joined and were welcomed, but within days they were criticising how the forum ran and trying to make changes in a rather dictatorial way. I would hope none of those were her acquaintances.

    We can only share our own experiences, and what we have learnt from other published writers. Writing is a continual learning experience.

    Dora put it well when she said-
    "people don't come here just as professionals but as friends, to relax from writing for a while, and to share information about writing (as well as other things.) "
  • Oh dear. Despite dropping in here most days I have missed all the above-mentioned nastiness and bullying and people leaving because of us. Do I just not see it? Who has been bullying whom?

    Maybe I've got the wrong idea about Forums. This is the first one I ever joined and I liked the 'feel' of it then and still do. I can put up a question about how to do this or that with computer/keyboard or whatever and within an hour usually someone will have given me either an answer or where to find an answer.

    I have got to 'know' quite a lot of you on here and have a lot of respect for the effortful journeys through writing and life you're all slogging through. Some of you I have met for real and given the chance, I'd love to meet and chat for real with more of you, not because of who you might really turn out to be or where you work but because to me you've got a reality behind your virtuality and naive as I am, I'd quite like to take tea and break cake with you. As people. To chat to. About all sorts of things, not just writing.
    Maybe I've got the wrong idea about Forums. (sighs)
    Maybe the problem is I don't take Forums seriously enough. (sighs)
    I'll go and have a look at AW again. Can you chat on there, like you can on here?
    Maybe I'd better knot my hanky round my virtual worldly goods, sling it up on a forked stick over my shoulder and walk off into to the sunset.
    I am part of a worthless Forum apparently, does that mean I'm worthless for being here?

    (Folds arms, sits down on toadstool, huffs and puffs)

    No, I'm staying put. Right here. No matter what you were meant to be, TB, when they created you, no matter that you haven't got 'credentials' or 'street cred' like other Forums have, no matter that people laugh at you and find you 'worthless' - I'm staying here with you, cos you've given me a lot over the past couple of years.
    And I don't desert my friends.

    Have I gone off-topic enough to be Moderated, yet? I still luv TB even if it isn't considered 'Top Notch' in the writing world. As I said, it's given me a lot. Maybe not all I need, but enough to bring me back often, so Thank you, Webbo.
  • Hear hear, Ceka! :) And please please do stay.
  • Calm down, dear (this is my Michael Winner impression), it's only a website. Seriously, though, Ceka, I don't think anyone is rubbishing Talkback. I like it, just like you and everyone else does, which is why we're chatting here now. Like so many folks say in the TB appreciation thread, it has a personal 'feel' and is down to earth.

    I've registered with Absolute Write as a second forum and have jumped in there a few times now, but it gives the impression of being vast, much more extensive than TB, like Jupiter to Io. You couldn't possibly visit everything over there and certainly couldn't come across every member. In TB you can do both.

    Another thing is AW's multi-national dimension, with members from God-knows-where. Here we've got the rest of us and then there's IG ;) .
  • Whaddya mean woolworths Ceka? eh?
  • I loved Woolworth's, I miss it a lot. Can't find bloody glue anywhere anymore.
    Sorry! Off Topic!
  • Bloody glue? We used to have some fake bloody glue when my son was into making fake wounds. I think I threw it away though, sorry ceka.

    Glue without blood in (but still sticky) is available I believe in that strange shop a bit like woollies but I can't remember the name of it. Wilkinson's! And Hobbycraft have a great selection.

    I am slightly upset to think we are looked down on. But I too love TB and it's strange mixture and the fact that you have all become real to me. Even if my perception of your reality turns out to be erroneous, I still enjoy your company. *Sniffs*. Gets out a hanky. *Blubs*. I expect it's this sort of thing gives us a bad name. *Honks*.
  • It's a shame that some people have left quite recently.
  • edited February 2010
    [quote=Red]It's a shame that some people have left quite recently. [/quote]

    Yes it is, Red, and I think some of it is because the balance on tb has shifted over the last couple of years.


    [quote=Liz!]I am slightly upset to think we are looked down on.[/quote]

    My reaction was similar, Liz, but again, I think we just need to find a better balance. In all honesty, I'm less comfortable with tb than I used to be - because of that shift in balance and I think (hope?) a bit of gentle moderation will help.
  • People come and go on every forum, it's part of the normal ebb and flow. Nothing is ever static, and sadly no one forum can meet the needs of every person. There's no harm in joining other forums to try them out - it's like shoes in a shoe shop: some will be a great fit, others not. And the great thing is you can own as many shoes as you want!
  • (Hoss hass to havv four shoes every time. Made to measure. Every time.)
    OFF TOPIC
  • Red wrote: "It's a shame that some people have left quite recently."
    I'm obviously missing something but how do people know when others have left? I see lots of comings and goings on an irregular basis but is there some means of ascertaining that someone has actually left as opposed to being occuppied with other things? (Aside from Dorothy who posted a leaving message)
  • Dunno. I seem to miss a lot as wel, Patrick, and I'm in here for a while every single day. A long while on and off today, cos very wet on My Day Off (bah)
  • I was thinking the same thing, but assumed that the leavers have told other TBers by whisper or email that they were packing up and moving on. Personally, I love TB. I'm glad I came back when I started writing again, and I intend to stick around for the forseeable. If no one minds, that is. :D

    *SA*
  • So who has left? Cos I'm here every day too and haven't noticed either... (wrong glasses if this illegible)
  • Sorry, didn't want to cause any upset with my thread above. :(

    Apart from Dorothy I wasn't aware anyone else had left either. When we don't see someone I think we all assume they are busy with their writing or other things, so it may be they have spoken privately to someone and said they're leaving.

    Hopefully the moderation will help keep the balance we sometimes need asserted...
  • SA is correct. Those who have left have informed via email/whisper.

    A little moderation is welcomed.
  • edited February 2010
    [quote=Carol]Sorry, didn't want to cause any upset with my thread above.[/quote]

    You didn't, Carol. I've just seen a few comments recently about people having left (can't remember who said those comments though, but I think it was to do with the OWC debate), but no one has actually come out and said they were leaving, or that such-and-such has left. It'd just be interesting to know how much of that was fact, and how much of it was said to "prove" how negative our site is. Which it isn't, at least not in my opinion. Moderation is always a good idea, though, if it keeps everything friendly and on topic.

    *SA*
  • OWC???

    I should know what this stands for.. I should...

    Keep up, Rosalie!
  • One Word Challenge...;)
  • We're thinking on the same lines SA.
    Stirling also claimed that people had left because of the "nastiness" (her word) but made no response when Liz asked her who has left.
    When people make throwaway comments about others having left, for whatever reason, and name no names, it does seem needlessly negative and cannot be refuted.
    I could claim a dozen newcomers joined the site today because they have heard such positive things about it. The proof of the comment is when I tell you their names and you can look them up. (But maybe they've all decided to Whisper exclusively to me! ;) )
  • edited February 2010
    [quote= Patrick]When people make throwaway comments about others having left, for whatever reason, and name no names[/quote]

    Because maybe we're entrusted with that whisper and respect the people's wishes to not have their name said for whatever reason?
  • Quite possibly, but it does make it seem that someone is just saying it for effect. However, when you state as you did above, Pix, then obviously the rest of us realise that someone has left, even if we haven't missed them (and I don't mean that in a nasty way!)

    Personally I find the members on here like a large family. I'm sure I have upset one and some have upset me from time to time, but I personally just get over it and get on with it. We are all entitled to state our opinions but we don't all have to agree all the time. However as writers we should be able to express ourselves without giving outright offence. I know that the times I have been made aware of when I have upset people it has been unintentional.
  • edited February 2010
    I agree, Pixie - if people leave because of a grievance and want everyone to know, they could post about it themselves. I'm not suggesting it is wrong to Whisper or that people should make the contents of such Whispers public.
    However, there is something a wee bit disingenuous about making claims, as Stirling did, that "the majority who have any decent publishing experience have left because of the nastiness" and refusing to back that up. It CANNOT be backed up because the person making the statement knows nothing about the publishing experiences of the "majority".
    Little seeds of negativity easily take root....
    Specific problems, if identified, can be addressed but how can anyone address the grievances of those who have left if we don't know what those grievances are?
    Maybe it's just me missing something but all this talk of nastiness and people leaving has passed me by and I am a regular visitor WITH DECENT PUBLISHING EXPERIENCE! (You'll just have to take my word for it of course! :) )
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