Are or Is

DeneBebbo

In a recent book review my final sentence was "All else are just things". The magazine editor changed it to "All else is just things". Which is correct, is or are? Given that "All else" and "things" is plural I thought "are" is the correct word, but am now wondering who's right -- me or the editor!

Betsie

I think the editor is correct. Else is just one entity and therefore singular.

dorothyd

I agree with that, Betsie. It's a tricky one and I usually ask the computer to sort these out, if it queries the are/is I study it and decide what's right.

DeneBebbo

These technicalities of English usage aren't my forte. Because "All else" is referring to the plural "things" doesn't that make "else" plural? If nothing else (ahem!), to me the version with "are" sounds right.

dorothyd

no, definitely not, 'else' is made into a singular thing by the 'all' otherwise it would be something like 'all the others' which would merit the 'are. No, the editor's right. (we usually are!)

Betsie

No, it's definitely is. Think about when the word school is used in a sentence - very often in the press you see "the school are going to blah blah..." But strictly speaking it should be "the school is" because there's only one school - but we automatically think plural because when you think of school you think of lots of people.

I would agree with Dorothy in that it's very tricky to get right especially as we all probably get it wrong when we're speaking.

richt

I think this is one of those that is not going to feel right whichever version you use. 'All else' can be rewritten as 'Everything else' and is clearly singular. Thus it takes 'is'. But then 'things' doesn't feel right (possibly OK if enclosed in "quotes"). But 'thing' is clearly not right, either.

In such situations I usually take the cowardly route and find a different way to say it. 'Everything else is just stuff' seems to work :-)

DeneBebbo

Betsie, that's an interesting one about school. In that instance school seems to be a shorthand for school children and teachers, in which case "are" would seem fine to me -- but is probably why I'm not an editor ;-)

DeneBebbo

This raises an interesting question. Is it acceptable to occasionally use incorrect grammar if the result sounds/reads better? Saying that, the readers may not agree with the writer about what sounds right!

PaulT

Call me pedantic but,
[quote=DeneBebbo]Given that "All else" and "things" is plural I thought "are" is the correct word,[/quote]

Should't it have been - Given that "All else" and "things"are plural :)

DeneBebbo

PaulT, you're right, I put that there to check who was reading carefully. Well, I wish that were the case, instead it's actually due to the red wine I drank last night and left me a bit groggy this morning :-)

dorothyd

re: reading it carefully.
I asked my techie friend if anyone ever read the terms and conditions on software and he said generally no, but there is a true story of someone who won $10,000 because he did, the company had put a clause in that if you read that far and proved it by emailing with the code they had inserted, you would win.

richt

I had heard that too. I must say that it sounds like an urban myth, but searching snopes doesn't turn it up, so maybe it is true after all. Be nice if it was.

Carol

Well in the end it is up to the editor whether they go with Are or Is.
While 'are' might be grammatically correct, 'is' sound better.

dorothyd

DB. it's not a good idea to use incorrect grammar, not because the reader may not agree but because it may bother the editor and as such generate a rejection. Not worth risking it.
And yes, it can upset readers, who will then write in and complain ...

Carol

At least if the editor did it you can say 'it wasn't me'. :)

Dwight

Yep, it's got to be 'is'. Think of phrases like: All is lost.

Richt has a good point, deciding to change it (which wouldn't be cowardly, Rich; it could even be better), because the question it has thrown up proves that it is unwieldy. It's surprising how you can hit upon an even more punchy version if you cast about. In any case (and I'm being finicky here) I would avoid using 'just', which usually means careless writing/editing.

Jay Mandal

'Just' is one of my favourite words. :(

Jay Mandal

The wages of sin is death.

Here is the news.

Jay Mandal

There is/are a church and a pub in the village.

Dwight

Interesting, that last one, Jay. I suppose you are notionally dividing your description so that it tells of one and then the other place, because I think it should be: There is a church and a pub in the village, meaning there is only one of each.

Jay Mandal

None of us is/are able to say whether this should be 'is' or 'are'.

None = not one = singular.

But I have a feeling there may/might be circumstances where you can/may use the plural verb. Could be wrong, though.

'None is here' sounds stupid. Mind you, 'Not one is here' sounds equally stupid. Perhaps 'no one' would be used.

mcbemused

I would agree with RichT and say that any phrase that requires a lengthy and endless discussion such as this, could have been better phrased in the first place.

If you ever have doubts about whether or not a sentence is grammatically correct, then simply change it for something better.

Jay Mandal

Remembering that none of us speak/speaks grammatically all the time. )

mcbemused

Wot is you trying to say? I kno the rools, me.

Jay Mandal

Wot happened to me smil(e)y? Let's try again. :)

Jay Mandal

My smiley's called George. :)

mcbemused

I thought perhaps you had done a Cyclops smilie ;)

Jay Mandal

In the Kingdom of the Blind ...

(Drat. I suppose I'd better check that that's right, too.)

Jay Mandal

Phew!

mcbemused

My brain hurts. I shall have to go for a lie down.

Jay Mandal

Which reminds me that someone's been chopping up onions in the kitchen. (Where else? I hear you ask.)

Jay Mandal

[quote=Jay Mandal]I shall have to go for a lie down.[/quote]

Make sure there's no pissenlit! :)

Jay Mandal

Er ... it wasn't me who said 'lie down'. Odd.

mcbemused

Now you remind me to do the weeding! Give me a hoe then... However, waste not want not - would you like your dandelions poached or boiled?

dorothyd

McBemused went for a lie down.
And I think we should let Jay go on contributing solo to this thread, as he seems to have a lot to say ... (LOL) :)

Jay Mandal

Roast or roasted. What's the difference? (Apart from 'ed'.)

Jay Mandal

Solo. Ah, I remember. It was in one of the 'Alone' poems.

Jay Mandal

By the way, I found your poem, Dorothy.

Jay Mandal

The one you were looking for, that is.

mcbemused

As I said, my 'ed hurts - I shall go now. Or should that be 'dandelion off?' (See what I did there? :) )

dorothyd

thanks ... I thought I'd lost it.

Jay Mandal

Is you is, or is you ain't my baby? Just thought I'd throw this into the ring. Hmm. Boney M, anyone? Napoleon. Solo. Alone. I hope you're keeping up. :)

Carol

I got lost further back...;)

Jay Mandal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHm7PnCCd4E

Especially for you. Or was that another song?

Jay Mandal

Kylie and Jason.

Jay Mandal

Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. Dessert. Desert.

Jay Mandal

But not the Sahara Desert.

Jay Mandal

Don't worry, I'm going to bed soon.

Jay Mandal

"... and a homecoming queen." Sorry, I'm singing along to the ads now. Think those are the right words. Mind you, they're not the ones on the ad.

DeneBebbo

[quote=mcbemused]I would agree with RichT and say that any phrase that requires a lengthy and endless discussion such as this, could have been better phrased in the first place.

If you ever have doubts about whether or not a sentence is grammatically correct, then simply change it for something better. [/quote]

Yeah, in retrospect I could have written the sentence differently, but in context of the rest of the review I was trying to finish with a pithy statement in which the word "just" was also chosen purposely. Anyhow, it shows how much there is to learn about writing no matter how often you've already been published!