Welcome to Writers Talkback. If you are a new user, your account will have to be approved manually to prevent spam. Please bear with us in the meantime
We're a mixed bunch on here - writers, reviewers and critters (you know what I mean!). I've been lucky enough to read some TBers' novels - but I wonder if any other TBers would be as brave as Michael to post such a large chunk of their novel?
I'd like a comparison of other WIP. Anyone got anything unpublished lying around they'd like to share?
[quote=Baggy Books]We're a mixed bunch on here - writers, reviewers and critters (you know what I mean!). I've been lucky enough to read some TBers' novels - but I wonder if any other TBers would be as brave as Michael to post such a large chunk of their novel?I'd like a comparison of other WIP. Anyone got anything unpublished lying around they'd like to share?[/quote]
I posted a link to the opening section of one of my short stories for opinions/advice at some point after I started posting regularly. I also posted a snippet from one of my collab novels (one of my sections not co-writers) ... so I'm brave... right? :P
I probably would post an entire opening chapter for comments but definitely in a private thread so it wasn't googlieable (so a term!)
[quote=Red]This is fiction, not journalism. Readers must have facts. [/quote]
Fiction (Noun)
1. Prose literature, esp. short stories and novels, about imaginary events and people.
2. Invention or fabrication as opposed to fact.
You also appear to only understand one genre. I hate to burst your bubble but there are no vampires, wizards, terminators, or Klingons. Fiction writing is is not reporting facts. Many writers bore readers by detailing the facts of their extensive research. A good fiction writer will make you believe his lies, and swallow them, hook line . . . clich
[quote=Michael Scott]Red wrote: This is fiction, not journalism. Readers must have facts.
Fiction (Noun)
1. Prose literature, esp. short stories and novels, about imaginary events and people.
2. Invention or fabrication as opposed to fact.
I know what fiction means. I write enough of it. You appear to have misunderstood what I was saying. Readers MUST have facts BEHIND what is written. This is not journalism. It's fiction. It's what goes INTO the fiction. Readers still need facts beneath the basis of the story that's been written. For example, I could write some made up shite about world war two, invent non existent battles and place names, change things around etc. Because the facts don't matter, right?
[quote=Michael Scott]You also appear to only understand one genre. I hate to burst your bubble but there are no vampires, wizards, terminators, or Klingons. Fiction writing is is not reporting facts. Many writers bore readers by detailing the facts of their extensive research. A good fiction writer will make you believe his lies, and swallow them, hook line . . . clich
I'm sorry but critters deserve to have their crit critted - especially when they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
If writing has 'rules' then so does critique and rule #1 is "First understand what the writer is trying to achieve, and how they are trying to achieve it. Do not ever crit against a crib sheet."
When reading the work of another I default a position that the writer is better than me - I've learned plenty that way, every time I come across something I don't quite agree with I don't assume that it's an error, I wonder why the writer wrote it that way.
I read a book on another site. I was probably the fiftieth person to read and comment. Most of the previous comments talked about lack of characterisation, lack of empathy, and how poorly drawn the character was. There was a wealth of advice on how to 'fix' these problems. I do, however, remember being intrigued as why the character couldn't sleep. Chapter six revealed that the main character was dead, and didn't know it. Ergo, everything written in the first five chapters was spot on - genius, even.
Intrigue is a funny thing. It works in many ways. I have watched many films and strangely enough the films I respect the most have the same quality. I have sat glued to the screen, staying up later than I'd intended, most of the time trying to work out what the hell is going on . . . and at some point in the future, I'll watch the film again . . . and I'll discover more.
I've no time for trinkets, or instructions on how to write them.
[quote=Michael Scott]especially when they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.[/quote]
I beg to differ on that one. If you're referring to Red of having no idea what she is talking about, then not only have you insulted her, and her vast wealth of knowledge and experience on literature, but you've (in my eyes) have insulted all the people she has helped, including me.
I still have vast amounts to learn about my field, hence why I want to go to University, so I shan't be critiquing this. However, from a readers point of view, it made no sense to me, it dragged on, and I had no real desire to read it after the first paragraph, despite me trying. Red is right in what she is saying about the piece structure, and I think you're being ignorant of her knowledge, which is rude in itself.
Michael, I think everyone who has contributed to this thread has been very generous with their time and in giving their views. Unfortunately you appear to be unwilling to accept their valid opinions.
You might not like it, but it's no good claiming they've not understood etc.
The book buying public are less tolerant than the members here...
They have been generous and I think it also indicates how bloody hard it is to get published - as if we didn't already know that. Even when people know how to write - and have proven it by their comments here, their novels still don't find a publisher.
I think what Michael is trying to say in very long threads is that he doesn't agree with the conventional rules or accepted formulas. He does however believe in some rules as everything that is posted is returned with a reason why the poster is wrong. If that isn't assembling a set of rules, even if personal and unique to yourself, then I don't know what is. So I gather, and correct me if I'm wrong here Michael, that he is claiming his own set of rules and will follow and eventually break those. If that works for him great, if it doesn't then it's another lesson learnt.
On the subject of writing manuals I still recommend 'How To Write the Breakout Novel' by Donald Mass and 'Story' by Robert McKee. The first being a realist approach to reconstructing the novel and finding your own way to write with your voice and in your own style. The second being a huge bible of story that's aimed at screenplay writing but essentially deals with story itself. It's a long and detailed read that leaves you understanding how the culture of story evolves and how it works today and may work in the future. If you read that at the same time as Christopher Vogler's 'The Writers Journey' you'll have a greater understanding of structure, story and how and why the world needs different aspects of story and what it expects.
Going back to Michael's main point these two books will make you realise how you can achieve and leave this. They give such a solid foundation of what works and what doesn't work not just based on what has gone before in novels and films, but throughout centuries and millennia of storytelling. 'Story' at least allows us to study the DNA map of story as it has evolved throughout our history. You want reverse engineering form a personal POV then go in with a guide map and a huge microscope.
However the best book I've ever read about understanding the novel isn't a writing manual at all but a reading manual. 'How Fiction Works, by James Wood. It may well be marketed as a criticism book and of course Wood was and is a literary critic. However it's like seeing the sand beneath the Red Sea for the first time as Moses makes that aqua split trick he's so famous for.
[quote=SilentTony]'How To Write the Breakout Novel' by Donald Mass and 'Story' by Robert McKee. [/quote]
That one has always bugged me - the guru thing. Robert McKee was unable to write a screenplay that came to fruition. And although you haven't mentioned them Dwight Swain was unable to write a notable work of fiction, and Blake Snyder's shameful claim to fame was co-write what was voted one of the worst films released by Hollywood "Stop, or my Mom will shoot". These are three huge gurus, and millions spend money following their guidelines. In the US, the industry for unpublished writers is worth millions and millions of dollars. 'How to' books, courses, seminars, pitch fests, etc.
Stephen King has been mentioned, bless his senile socks. But what most fail to understand is that 'On Writing' is not an instructional book. It is how Mr King approaches his writing, and it works for him. It is unlikely to work for you.
[quote=Carol]Michael, I think everyone who has contributed to this thread has been very generous with their time and in giving their views. Unfortunately you appear to be unwilling to accept their valid opinions.
You might not like it, but it's no good claiming they've not understood etc.
The book buying public are less tolerant than the members here... [/quote]
We've been here before. Nobody here has been generous with their time. Very few people on writers' sites are generous with their time. People 'love' to cast their opinion on almost anything.
People like 'Silent Tony' and 'Paperbackwriter' - I can argue / debate with all day . . . for they bring good arguments to the table. Many others watch, silently, noting the odd snippet of wisdom.
As far as I'm concerned the majority of writers on this site have way too much time on their hands (to be given generously). The popularity of threads like "The goodnight thread" and "Last to post is the nicest talkbacker" are testament to such.
This is one of the few threads where 'peers' with opposing views are discussing writing. Those who do not wish to partake can find one of the many other threads. I, for one, am not seeking any form of approval, nor do I wish to have a conversation with a group of yes men.
Michael.
You're not after approval. It seems you're not after critique, since when you get it, you question the validity of the critique, or the credibility of its source. You seem to want a debate, so have one, but please don't insult other users.
[quote=Michael Scott]The popularity of threads like "The goodnight thread" and "Last to post is the nicest talkbacker" are testament to such.
[/quote]
Oh come on, where's your sense of humour?
After a long day grinding away on the wp, don't you enjoy a bit of light relief?
I resent that micheal. i read your work small piece at a time and gave you a considered opinion. in MY time. I am writing 2 novels i am moving house, expanding our 2 businesses and have 5 horses to care for not to mention the mundain things like cooking etc I generously gave you some feedback as honest as my small experience would allow and you have totally ignored any real feedback and just looked for a debate. i agree with webbo.
[quote=Michael Scott]I'm sorry but critters deserve to have their crit critted - especially when they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.[/quote]
I would point out that those who critique by way of invite are not there to have their crits critted by return. The process is about taking on board remarks from those YOU invited to comment, Michael. If you cant take it, then dont invite it.
And as for your inflated ignorance of my not knowing what Im talking about, I know precisely what I talk about, and I shant resort to insulting you as you have me by way of a reply.
[quote=Michael Scott]If writing has 'rules' then so does critique and rule #1 is "First understand what the writer is trying to achieve, and how they are trying to achieve it. Do not ever crit against a crib sheet."[/quote]
Im very aware of the self regulatory rules of critique, Michael. Again, I will point out that you invited feedback to your piece, so spitting your dummy out and questioning the validity because it's not what you want to hear isnt very constructive.
Ive guided plenty of people to become better writers. They can take on board the advice or they can ignore it, I dont put a gun to their heads. I am passionate about writing and Im just as passionate about helping others achieve their best. Ive been writing long enough.
Lastly, if youve no time for trinkets or instructions on how to write them, dont invite them by return. Do your own thing and let everyone else do theirs.
Michael, I may be wrong but I get the impression you posted on here to stir things up a bit and perhaps entertain yourself by starting some arguments.
May I point out to you that there is a great deal of writing expertise and experience in the Talkback community. We are not a bunch of yes-men (or yes-women) and there is room for robust and rigorous discussion of different writing techniques and modes of criticism, among other things.
Disagreements can be enlightening, stimulating and fun. But this relies on mutual respect. Please show some.
[quote=Red]Ive guided plenty of people to become better writers. [/quote]
So have I . . . What's your point.
It's probably a test of your comprehension skills but if you read the OP, I'll think you'll find that invited critique so as the critique could be critiqued.
Michael, I'm confused. You stated that you wanted to see how each of us approaches critique. That, as it stands, is a reasonable exercise.
But when anyone has offered a critique you have shot it down in flames as being inappropriate, wrong-headed, or misguided. There is also, I think, an inference that no-one has the right to criticise the work which you have asked people to critique.
[quote=Red]rule #1 is "First understand what the writer is trying to achieve, and how they are trying to achieve it.[/quote] These are your words, Michael. But you stated from the outset that it is a work that you will never publish and that you don't care about it. So whatever you were trying to achieve is, in your own words, irrelevant, in the context of the given abstracts: you've put the work on the scrap heap already for not satisfying your own criteria.
You clearly have no respect for the voices who have spoken here: 'peers' (your quotes) says it all. Why, then, ask for their input in the first place?
Tell us, please, your own opinion of your abstracts, line by line - give us a clue what you wanted us to say.
The old comedian complained, 'Everyone's a critic' - but that's a hell of a lot better than everyone being a sycophant.
Bertiebear, I think if you read the post above yours, I've already answered the question.
[quote=bertiebear]Tell us, please, your own opinion of your abstracts, line by line - give us a clue what you wanted us to say. [/quote]
Jeez, you have 'How to' books to teach you how to write, and now you want guidance from me on what to say on a forum.
And if you haven't worked it out yet, I absolutely no desire to make 'e-friends'. If you have an opinion born of your own reasoning and mind, then I'm all ears. Obviously, I'm very bored by people repeating the same few clich
Michael, how about you turn it down a notch, and discuss without ridiculing?
[quote=Michael Scott]why am I not hearing? "I like the way author X does Y."[/quote]
because there is very little discussion of any authors, other than your "critique of critique" which, frankly, I don't think anybody who offered their honest opinions signed up for or needs, unless you're going to be constructive and a bit more respectful about it.
[quote=Michael Scott]How would you go about building a soundtrack into your novel withOUT infringing copyright?
[/quote]
Let's move on from this question constructively, or this thread is closing.
Never having read the authors mentioned - or in fact, any other How To book on the art of writing, I can assure you that any comments I make are from my own reasoning.
[quote=Michael Scott]Michael Scott wrote: How would you go about building a soundtrack into your novel with infringing copyright?[/quote]
Not sure what you mean about this. I wouldn't need a soundtrack in a novel as the idea is that the reader 'watches' the story in their head and 'plays' any music in their own mind too.
If you mean for a film or a tv or script version then this is something different to novel writing.
I'm assuming Michael means an ebook - a book enhanced by sound? If so, interesting idea. I like the idea of a multimedia novel. Not sure where the copyright comes in - unless you're talking about incorporating a soundtrack where the copyright belongs to someone else? Safer to create your own, I'd have thought.
I find it very exciting, the different possibilites that are opening up for writing, reading, etc, as a result of e-reader technology.
But yes, as Lou suggests, maybe a new thread is a good idea.
You are absolutely right Rosalie and MS question touches on this. If it's published music it has copyright and strictly speaking you should register with the PRS (Performing Rights Society) and pay the royalty on the music. I haven't checked this out but it's something along these lines.
You have to be careful using music on an eBook/video unless you've had it written for you.
Comments
Read it, be inspired by it, but don't treat it as your writing bible (or other religious text)!
I'd like a comparison of other WIP. Anyone got anything unpublished lying around they'd like to share?
Remembering, of course, that this isn't a private part of the forum so anything posted will be in the public domain.
And thank the Lord that they trouble themselves to do so
I posted a link to the opening section of one of my short stories for opinions/advice at some point after I started posting regularly. I also posted a snippet from one of my collab novels (one of my sections not co-writers) ... so I'm brave... right? :P
I probably would post an entire opening chapter for comments but definitely in a private thread so it wasn't googlieable (so a term!)
Fiction (Noun)
1. Prose literature, esp. short stories and novels, about imaginary events and people.
2. Invention or fabrication as opposed to fact.
You also appear to only understand one genre. I hate to burst your bubble but there are no vampires, wizards, terminators, or Klingons. Fiction writing is is not reporting facts. Many writers bore readers by detailing the facts of their extensive research. A good fiction writer will make you believe his lies, and swallow them, hook line . . . clich
Fiction (Noun)
1. Prose literature, esp. short stories and novels, about imaginary events and people.
2. Invention or fabrication as opposed to fact.
I know what fiction means. I write enough of it. You appear to have misunderstood what I was saying. Readers MUST have facts BEHIND what is written. This is not journalism. It's fiction. It's what goes INTO the fiction. Readers still need facts beneath the basis of the story that's been written. For example, I could write some made up shite about world war two, invent non existent battles and place names, change things around etc. Because the facts don't matter, right?
[quote=Michael Scott]You also appear to only understand one genre. I hate to burst your bubble but there are no vampires, wizards, terminators, or Klingons. Fiction writing is is not reporting facts. Many writers bore readers by detailing the facts of their extensive research. A good fiction writer will make you believe his lies, and swallow them, hook line . . . clich
If writing has 'rules' then so does critique and rule #1 is "First understand what the writer is trying to achieve, and how they are trying to achieve it. Do not ever crit against a crib sheet."
When reading the work of another I default a position that the writer is better than me - I've learned plenty that way, every time I come across something I don't quite agree with I don't assume that it's an error, I wonder why the writer wrote it that way.
I read a book on another site. I was probably the fiftieth person to read and comment. Most of the previous comments talked about lack of characterisation, lack of empathy, and how poorly drawn the character was. There was a wealth of advice on how to 'fix' these problems. I do, however, remember being intrigued as why the character couldn't sleep. Chapter six revealed that the main character was dead, and didn't know it. Ergo, everything written in the first five chapters was spot on - genius, even.
Intrigue is a funny thing. It works in many ways. I have watched many films and strangely enough the films I respect the most have the same quality. I have sat glued to the screen, staying up later than I'd intended, most of the time trying to work out what the hell is going on . . . and at some point in the future, I'll watch the film again . . . and I'll discover more.
I've no time for trinkets, or instructions on how to write them.
I beg to differ on that one. If you're referring to Red of having no idea what she is talking about, then not only have you insulted her, and her vast wealth of knowledge and experience on literature, but you've (in my eyes) have insulted all the people she has helped, including me.
I still have vast amounts to learn about my field, hence why I want to go to University, so I shan't be critiquing this. However, from a readers point of view, it made no sense to me, it dragged on, and I had no real desire to read it after the first paragraph, despite me trying. Red is right in what she is saying about the piece structure, and I think you're being ignorant of her knowledge, which is rude in itself.
You might not like it, but it's no good claiming they've not understood etc.
The book buying public are less tolerant than the members here...
Following 'rules' isn't enough either.
On the subject of writing manuals I still recommend 'How To Write the Breakout Novel' by Donald Mass and 'Story' by Robert McKee. The first being a realist approach to reconstructing the novel and finding your own way to write with your voice and in your own style. The second being a huge bible of story that's aimed at screenplay writing but essentially deals with story itself. It's a long and detailed read that leaves you understanding how the culture of story evolves and how it works today and may work in the future. If you read that at the same time as Christopher Vogler's 'The Writers Journey' you'll have a greater understanding of structure, story and how and why the world needs different aspects of story and what it expects.
Going back to Michael's main point these two books will make you realise how you can achieve and leave this. They give such a solid foundation of what works and what doesn't work not just based on what has gone before in novels and films, but throughout centuries and millennia of storytelling. 'Story' at least allows us to study the DNA map of story as it has evolved throughout our history. You want reverse engineering form a personal POV then go in with a guide map and a huge microscope.
However the best book I've ever read about understanding the novel isn't a writing manual at all but a reading manual. 'How Fiction Works, by James Wood. It may well be marketed as a criticism book and of course Wood was and is a literary critic. However it's like seeing the sand beneath the Red Sea for the first time as Moses makes that aqua split trick he's so famous for.
That one has always bugged me - the guru thing. Robert McKee was unable to write a screenplay that came to fruition. And although you haven't mentioned them Dwight Swain was unable to write a notable work of fiction, and Blake Snyder's shameful claim to fame was co-write what was voted one of the worst films released by Hollywood "Stop, or my Mom will shoot". These are three huge gurus, and millions spend money following their guidelines. In the US, the industry for unpublished writers is worth millions and millions of dollars. 'How to' books, courses, seminars, pitch fests, etc.
Stephen King has been mentioned, bless his senile socks. But what most fail to understand is that 'On Writing' is not an instructional book. It is how Mr King approaches his writing, and it works for him. It is unlikely to work for you.
[quote=Carol]Michael, I think everyone who has contributed to this thread has been very generous with their time and in giving their views. Unfortunately you appear to be unwilling to accept their valid opinions.
You might not like it, but it's no good claiming they've not understood etc.
The book buying public are less tolerant than the members here... [/quote]
We've been here before. Nobody here has been generous with their time. Very few people on writers' sites are generous with their time. People 'love' to cast their opinion on almost anything.
People like 'Silent Tony' and 'Paperbackwriter' - I can argue / debate with all day . . . for they bring good arguments to the table. Many others watch, silently, noting the odd snippet of wisdom.
As far as I'm concerned the majority of writers on this site have way too much time on their hands (to be given generously). The popularity of threads like "The goodnight thread" and "Last to post is the nicest talkbacker" are testament to such.
This is one of the few threads where 'peers' with opposing views are discussing writing. Those who do not wish to partake can find one of the many other threads. I, for one, am not seeking any form of approval, nor do I wish to have a conversation with a group of yes men.
You're not after approval. It seems you're not after critique, since when you get it, you question the validity of the critique, or the credibility of its source. You seem to want a debate, so have one, but please don't insult other users.
That isn't fair. It takes time to compose a long post.
[/quote]
Oh come on, where's your sense of humour?
After a long day grinding away on the wp, don't you enjoy a bit of light relief?
I would point out that those who critique by way of invite are not there to have their crits critted by return. The process is about taking on board remarks from those YOU invited to comment, Michael. If you cant take it, then dont invite it.
And as for your inflated ignorance of my not knowing what Im talking about, I know precisely what I talk about, and I shant resort to insulting you as you have me by way of a reply.
[quote=Michael Scott]If writing has 'rules' then so does critique and rule #1 is "First understand what the writer is trying to achieve, and how they are trying to achieve it. Do not ever crit against a crib sheet."[/quote]
Im very aware of the self regulatory rules of critique, Michael. Again, I will point out that you invited feedback to your piece, so spitting your dummy out and questioning the validity because it's not what you want to hear isnt very constructive.
Ive guided plenty of people to become better writers. They can take on board the advice or they can ignore it, I dont put a gun to their heads. I am passionate about writing and Im just as passionate about helping others achieve their best. Ive been writing long enough.
Lastly, if youve no time for trinkets or instructions on how to write them, dont invite them by return. Do your own thing and let everyone else do theirs.
May I point out to you that there is a great deal of writing expertise and experience in the Talkback community. We are not a bunch of yes-men (or yes-women) and there is room for robust and rigorous discussion of different writing techniques and modes of criticism, among other things.
Disagreements can be enlightening, stimulating and fun. But this relies on mutual respect. Please show some.
So have I . . . What's your point.
It's probably a test of your comprehension skills but if you read the OP, I'll think you'll find that invited critique so as the critique could be critiqued.
Who knew?
But when anyone has offered a critique you have shot it down in flames as being inappropriate, wrong-headed, or misguided. There is also, I think, an inference that no-one has the right to criticise the work which you have asked people to critique.
[quote=Red]rule #1 is "First understand what the writer is trying to achieve, and how they are trying to achieve it.[/quote] These are your words, Michael. But you stated from the outset that it is a work that you will never publish and that you don't care about it. So whatever you were trying to achieve is, in your own words, irrelevant, in the context of the given abstracts: you've put the work on the scrap heap already for not satisfying your own criteria.
You clearly have no respect for the voices who have spoken here: 'peers' (your quotes) says it all. Why, then, ask for their input in the first place?
Tell us, please, your own opinion of your abstracts, line by line - give us a clue what you wanted us to say.
The old comedian complained, 'Everyone's a critic' - but that's a hell of a lot better than everyone being a sycophant.
[quote=bertiebear]Tell us, please, your own opinion of your abstracts, line by line - give us a clue what you wanted us to say. [/quote]
Jeez, you have 'How to' books to teach you how to write, and now you want guidance from me on what to say on a forum.
And if you haven't worked it out yet, I absolutely no desire to make 'e-friends'. If you have an opinion born of your own reasoning and mind, then I'm all ears. Obviously, I'm very bored by people repeating the same few clich
[quote=Michael Scott]why am I not hearing? "I like the way author X does Y."[/quote]
because there is very little discussion of any authors, other than your "critique of critique" which, frankly, I don't think anybody who offered their honest opinions signed up for or needs, unless you're going to be constructive and a bit more respectful about it.
[quote=Michael Scott]How would you go about building a soundtrack into your novel withOUT infringing copyright?
[/quote]
Let's move on from this question constructively, or this thread is closing.
:D
[/quote]
[quote=Webbo]Let's move on from this question constructively, or this thread is closing.[/quote]
Webbo, you posted this some 4hrs ago. My case rests.
Feel free to close the thread.
If I'm the last to post does it make me the nicest talkbacker?
I'll put it on my CV.
Not sure what you mean about this. I wouldn't need a soundtrack in a novel as the idea is that the reader 'watches' the story in their head and 'plays' any music in their own mind too.
If you mean for a film or a tv or script version then this is something different to novel writing.
I find it very exciting, the different possibilites that are opening up for writing, reading, etc, as a result of e-reader technology.
But yes, as Lou suggests, maybe a new thread is a good idea.
You have to be careful using music on an eBook/video unless you've had it written for you.