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Hybrid fiction & non fiction novel

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  • One thing you might try is to put the present tense parts in italics. That would mean that the ordinary gentle stuff is in the past as it should be, but when you come to describe the action, you are back there as though it is happening again around you.
    That would have an impact on where your hero (you!) is as he's telling the story, perhaps, and it might get a little complicated, but it could work.
    Also I'd split up the big paragraphs, so you could put the present tense parts in a separate one for added impact.
  • Great advice as always. Is this a common problem or is it me creating one?
  • I always thought my life was quite boring, fast paced at times but non the less still boring :-)
  • Thank you. Sorry for all the questions, but why is it a good idea to edit once you have your first draft apposed to doing it as you go along? ..... Is this a common problem or is it me creating one?
    It is good to question input of your work, whether to third parties {like here} or within your own head. Make notes about raised questions and their potential answers but DO NOT change construction of the initial draft. Continually making changes risks losing appeal of your plot.

    Write {dictate} the whole experience in its raw form. Say {verbal or written} exactly as you feel at the moment of relating the events. This is the 'best' way of ensuring continuity of style as you describe your whole story. It doesn't matter if you repeat references to the same incident, miss pertinent detail or muddle context, tense, grammar etc. Priority and only concern in the first draft is to create beginning-middle-end of the story onto paper in the emotion that you feel needs expressing. Once that 'end' has been reached ... go away. Commit yourself to an entirely different energy that has chance to absorb your full attention.

    Whether it is an over indulgent binge of food, drink, carnal luxury or any other passion that fulfills your senses, the distraction will help your assessment of the written composition upon reading that first draft through its entirety.

    Then it will be time to add details you 'forgot' remove repetitious scenes and make general amendments. Save this as a new copy. NEVER alter or destroy your first draft because, through every edit, you will find need to recall how you first expressed particular details.
    Welcome to the task of editing.

    Try to leave each edited manuscript tucked out of sight before reviewing and repeating the process. The longer delay, between each revision, the more accurate your assessment of its worth. There will be times, when reading through the latest version, you will realise 'something' has been lost. That will be time to refer to earlier versions to copy and paste a discarded description that moulds the various incidents into their most entertaining order.

    The 'problem' will be deciding which of the many edits works best in accomplishing the finished article you wish to be read as the completed work. 'We' writers are our own worst enemy at creating the questions of doubt.

    Good luck and don't put false constraint on your belief.

  • Dave - Jan's post above is absolutely spot-on. Do yourself a huge favour and do as Jan suggests. Can't emphasize how important it is - especially to a new writer - how easy it is to ruin your 'voice' if you start thinking about the writing craft before you get that first draft written.
  • Totally agree, especially with the 'keep the first draft'.

    The trouble with the computer is it is so easy to change stuff and forget which draft you are changing. For this reason I keep all poems that i think are 'definitive' (in this case it would be your first draft) in a different colour to the rest.

    Save as you go along.
  • Love all this info. Today I've been working on a piece talking about a fella who joined my team, came up with a fictional story about his girlfriend being raped, his lies caused my team to be put in a contact situation luckily not losing anyone and how after being in Baghdad less than 24hrs, he went on to kill two operators in Iraq in cold blood after joining a different company. It's basic and it's raw, but it shall stay like that for now until the time is ready as everyone has recommended.
  • Thank you, Claudia and Liz.
    ..... first draft) in a different colour to the rest.
    Brilliant suggestion, Liz, to have avoided 'enthusiastic' errors in my past editing exercises.

  • Just read the extract Dave - it's brill. Very raw and immediate. Have you ever read James Frey? I think your style is very similar. As the others have said, just keep going! All these editing queries can be worried about later. Good luck!
  • I haven't read James Frey. I mostly read adventure books that have been written by just average everyday people who have been on an adventure, for example someone driving in a classic car across Europe etc. I'm not to worry about the edit side of things as I will deal with it when I have to.

    I understand that you have to introduce characters in a book but do you have to introduce them all? I have 12 fellas in my team, would it be best to introduce a handful at a time or one at a time?
  • You should have main characters and secondary ones, Dave. 12 is a lot to expect your reader to keep track of, so maybe you could have some in pairs, say, or some that you mention once or twice but don't bring to the fore as much as others. You could have a general group intro: 'The lads in B group had known each other for years. Smith, Brown, Green and Ivy had served together in Bosnia. Brent and Howard always worked as a pair, ever since they joined up. Ford was the loner. We all had our specialities.' That sort of thing gives the names and certain expectations about them and the part they will play.
    If you aren't going to give them all specific roles, they don't need to be named separately. 'B Group' on its own would do.
    Write up a cast list, and see how many of them you actually need, and how many can be part of the background.
  • This answers my question perfectly thank you. Whilst I have 12 in my team only a few are prominent.
  • Dave, I've read you excerpt. I'm afraid to say I don't really agree with the general consensus.

    Your excerpt reads like my first attempt at a novel, and I am eternally grateful to my sister who stopped me after the first page.

    The problem appears to be you (the narrator) are standing out front and centre, 'telling' me a story. I (the reader) isn't really *that* interested in listening to you for an extended period of time. I need you to step back out of the way so as I can get closer, get involved.

    I'm not the world's expert. It's just my opinion.
  • Hey I value your opinion but I have no idea what you mean. Do you want me to write it as though someone else is telling the story?
  • You should write it how you like. It's a first draft. Everything can be changed and improved later. First, tell your story.
  • I'm a little confused by the post, the snippet that I posted is in it's rough form, but what is meant by step back? I'm not portraying I'm a hero or the centre of the book, in fact it's based on my team but I don't know how else to tell the story
  • Put the manuscript to one side and take a break.

    Then read it with fresh eyes.

    I think you'll realise how and where it may need changing. That's how the process works for most writers.
  • I don't feel like I need to take a break, I've not really looked to much at the printed version, I'm still dictating the story into the dictaphone and feel I'm on a roll at the moment
  • Then go with that roll - you're doing okay.
  • I'm a little confused by the post, the snippet that I posted is in it's rough form, but what is meant by step back? I'm not portraying I'm a hero or the centre of the book, in fact it's based on my team but I don't know how else to tell the story
    Dave, to explain myself I'd have to write an essay, which is something I'm not prepared to do. I hope from the following example - you can tell the difference.

    [Telling, direct]

    The needs of a man convinced me to go into town. I decided to go out to the local bar alone. I didn't think there were any insurgents in the area but I woke with pounding headache and Al Quaeda questioning me.

    [Showing, indirect]

    Rosie, the Chinese barmaid, was hot. I knew if I played my cards right I could get me some tonight. The last thing I remember checking in my wallet for my protection, and then the dull thud, followed by the white light, and then sound of a Jew's Harp playing in my ears before everything went black. When I awoke my mouth was dry. I could hear towel-heads screaming at me. I didn't understand a word they were saying.

    In the first example you are telling me what happened. In the second example I'm making assumptions. I'm involved based on MY experiences. I remember the 'dull thud' and the 'Jew's Harp' from the time I got mugged outside Clapham Junction . . . I'm there with you, and that morning, dry mouth feeling . . . I hate that. Did they drug you? blah, blah, blah . . . Yeah, I've woken up disorientated . . . after my stag night . . .

    - I *really* hope that makes sense.

    Novel writers don't tell us how in love their characters are, they remind us how in love we once were.

    Again, you don't have to agree with me.

  • Thank fully I don't agree with you! I said at the start of this thread that I am writing this for myself, friends and family. I have no desire to make money or see it in book shops, it is quite simply just me telling people who know my background my experiences in Iraq. Admittedly it will not be up to real writers standards like yourself and everyone else on this site and I do thank you for your input and everyone else for their fantastic advice but I shall write it in the style of 'Me' simply because that's the style I want to write it in :-)
  • Thank fully I don't agree with you! I said at the start of this thread that I am writing this for myself, friends and family. I have no desire to make money or see it in book shops, it is quite simply just me telling people who know my background my experiences in Iraq. Admittedly it will not be up to real writers standards like yourself and everyone else on this site and I do thank you for your input and everyone else for their fantastic advice but I shall write it in the style of 'Me' simply because that's the style I want to write it in :-)
    If you're writing it purely for friends and family why not ask them for advice?

    You are clearly looking to hear you first time effort is perfect and wonderful. I'm telling you - it's not.

    Several war stories portray the 'hero' explaining to his comrade (who's had his legs blown off and his guts hanging out) you'll be fine. The character invariably dies.

  • Ha! I don't need you to tell me that my first effort at writing something is not perfect, I already know it isn't.

    Here is what I do know. I'm writing about experiences that I've been through, events that would make some people laugh, some cry, and no doubt some people take a long hard look at their life and realise that life is really to short to take it to seriously and learn to enjoy it.

    Guess which one of the above I am, that's right I'm all three!

    I've been shot at, I've been hit by a suicide bomber and unfortunately I've taken life, but I've also saved many, I'm here to tell the story in the best way I can, I ask advice because I'm a firm believer in 'if you don't ask then you will never know'.

    I've not asked friends and family for advice because only my wife and psychologist knows I'm working on this project. When I was an operator I was at the top of my game, working in stress situations where a decision I would make could literally mean the difference between you and your team making it home or losing someone to a explosion that has ravaged the human body of your friend to something you no longer recognise as human and your putting him in a bin bag!

    I no longer deal with pressure very well due to several factors that the brain haemorrhaged caused so on the advice of my psychologist and my wife the project has been kept secret to keep pressure and stress to a minimum.

    Yes some of my characters die, not because it's inevitable but because that is what happened, this isn't a Hollywood movie this is real life, and because of that simple fact alone it's not perfect :-)

    Again I thank you and everyone that has replied to this thread, the help and advice that has been given has been amazing, but please don't presume that I want to hear that my first time effort is perfect and wonderful because I don't.

    Didn't you say that you gave up on your first effort on advice from your sister? That's the difference right there between yourself and me, I don't give up on anything, no matter how hard, how many questions I have to ask or how many put down and knock backs I receive, I never ever give up!
  • edited March 2014
    Dave, I've read you excerpt. I'm afraid to say I don't really agree with the general consensus.
    .


    You are clearly looking to hear you first time effort is perfect and wonderful. I'm telling you - it's not.



    My understanding is that Dave is well aware that his work isn't perfect, which is why he's been involved with a lengthy dialogue on this forum and has been grateful for the advice offered.

    As you seem to be the one 'out of step' with the consensus, Michael, perhaps you might consider the possibility that you might be wrong?
    Whatever, there was no call to be so rude with your final comment.

  • I'm not the world's expert. It's just my opinion.
    That one sentence illustrates exactly why Michael Scott's posts should be shelved with rest of proffered contributions and illustrates potential confusion that others forewarned.
    you can always post an extract on here if you want a general consensus about how it's working
    Don't post it here! You'll just get forty rewrites all contradicting each other
    ... you need to bash out that first draft and not be swayed from telling your story. As MS says, there's no right or wrong way - just your way.
    Davethepioneer should follow general concensus to 'just do it'. Once the whole has been swilled from his head, there will be time enough to consider the works future.

    Keep doing what you are doing and Talkbackers can exercise our well practiced patience to await developments. There is no requisite to justify purpose of your writing.
    Again; good luck Davethepioneer.
  • Yep, good luck, Dave. Remember - this is your baby.
  • Always moving forward, I have a story to tell, I've not even touched the tip of the iceberg :-) I won't be putting every incident/contact I've been in b
  • I (the reader) isn't really *that* interested in listening to you for an extended period of time.

    I'm not the world's expert. It's just my opinion.
    Quod erat demonstrandum!
    Michael, no-one gets in a car the first time and immediately passes a driving test. No-one starts school at five by going straight into the seniors (unless they are very special indeed).

    Dave has a story to tell: it's a story that, told well, people will want to buy and to read. It will take a lot of polishing, but at this moment it's important to work out how and what to tell. As in all first attempts, there's a temptation to put everything in there because that's how it was at the time; by the third draft (sorry, Dave!), he'll have learned to remove the stuff that isn't essential to the plot, to find the spotlight moments of the story, and to tighten up on how it's told.

    This is a site for writers at all levels, and advice is welcome. Show, don't tell, is the best there is. Also, remember the story curve - got to build to a climax, and have an aftermath; but the aftermath could actually be in another book.

    What's important is that we write, and keep writing. That's how we learn. I've blogged about this very subject this week - have a look:
    http://wordsunderoneroof.wordpress.com/



  • I've not contributed to this thread before but I have followed developments with interest. I think the problem is that people are reacting differently because Dave has effectively stated two aims for the project that are slightly at odds with one another - firstly that he wants to complete a book for family and friends to read, secondly that he wants to ensure the book's as good as it can be.

    The second objective carries implications of a wider audience, because the benefit of making a book as good as possible means that it could then be enjoyed by many more people than just those with a personal connection to Dave. The downside of that is that this opens Dave's writing up to the kind of criticism posted by Michael, which is as valid as anybody else's opinion but possibly irrelevant considering the scope of the project.

    From what you've written, Dave, it's clear you're not expecting to see your book top the charts at Waterstones or win next year's Man Booker. This is a good mindset to start from! Your aim is to complete a manuscript - a huge task on its own - and as you've not done any writing before (please correct me if I'm wrong) this objective is the only thing you should be worrying about at this stage. Get the words down, then see how you feel about it afterwards.

    I get the impression you're writing this story partly as catharsis, as a way of dealing with what you've been through. This makes perfect sense, and I hope it helps you. Obviously I don't know you at all, but I know people who've embarked on similar projects and when they've got to the end, it's been enough - mission accomplished. All they ever wanted to do was tell themselves the story in a way that was tangible. In the end, it wasn't really about sharing the experience, just a way of confronting it and making sense of what it meant for them.

    Because your experiences are so different from the things the majority of us on this forum have experienced, we're very interested in the story you have to tell. I just think it would be wise for you to take our enthusiasm with a pinch of salt. The majority of comments you've had seem to be coming from an assumption that you'll be aiming to get your book published. But if you've never even had a short story or poem published it's hard to explain how different the process of getting something out into the world is from getting it down on paper, even if you were going to self-publish. As well as countless rounds of editing, you would also need to take care of (or get/pay somebody else to take care of) typesetting (and/or formatting for ebook version(s)), cover design, pricing, promotional activity, etc, etc. It's a lot to take on and to be honest most of it might seem more or less irrelevant once you've actually got the story written.

    My advice is to keep going, tell YOUR story YOUR way, don't worry about how it "should" be written, and take it all the way through to the end. Yes, you might have to ditch most of it and rewrite huge swathes of the text over and over again if you then decide you want to try to make a few quid from it, but if you're not prepared to face doing that then a career writing books probably isn't for you. If, on the other hand, your manuscript ends up sitting in a bottom drawer, a task happily ticked off your list, or you just want to get a few copies printed without all the 'proper' bells and whistles, to share with family and friends, that's fine - it's your decision.

    Either way, the best of luck to you, Dave.
  • I think the best advice I've been given by several people is to just get the story down on paper which is my objective
  • Yep, otherwise you're gonna spend all your time reading this thread.



  • Lol that's true, thankfully I don't work on it everyday :-)
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