How to cope with restrictive house style and rules?

helenesme

I'm optimistically plugging away at the womag (and similar) market, and I'm working on something targeted towards the Weekly News. However, they have a rule that every line of dialogue should have a dialogue tag, and I'm finding this incredibly restrictive. I've always believed that dialogue tags aren't necessary for every single bit of speech, and I don't put them in when it's obvious which character is speaking anyway. I also find them quite intrusive when used too often. The story I'm working on has a lot of dialogue, it's a two-hander and the snippets of dialogue are short, so having to put in "Rose said", "Louise asked" etc., before or after every piece of speech doesn't, I think, do anything for the "flow". How have others coped with this sort of thing? If the style a market demands really isn't your style, is it best not to bother with that market? Or alternatively, try to adapt? For instance, I suppose I could try re-writing so that each speech is a little longer, and/or have less dialogue overall, so that the tags are fewer and less intrusive? What do others think?

ana s

I didn't realise house style could be so prescriptive. Seems like a silly rule to me. The editor could always add a few tags for clarity if necessary. If you're keen to crack this market I suppose your only choice is to adapt.

boredrobots

Yeesh, that's insane!

helenesme

I agree absolutely, but of course it's their publication so their rules. In addition, they don't publish stories written in the first person which I think is a bit silly too, but easier to get around. I must admit, I don't know of other markets quite as prescriptive, but I know no-one's forcing me to write for them. I'll try and see if the dialogue can be adapted so it flows well even with tags - it may not work but it's worth a go.

Tiny Nell

Eugh. I don't think I'd submit. I wouldn't want readers to assume that clunkiness was my doing! It would completely taint a story for me.

Baggy Books

I suspect they use their rules to reduce the number of submissions.

PaigeElizabethTurner

Tiny, you nailed it.

Whether established or not, we will be judged by what we deliver to the market place. The average reader would have no idea of the requirements we are expected to adhere to, so therefore, any 'clunkiness' will definitely be seen as our doing!!

Mrs Bear

I spend half my time telling people not to put tags with every line of dialogue. Are you sure you really want to submit to this publication?

helenesme

No, I'm not 100 per cent sure yet. And I have considered that a story I'm not completely happy with, something that doesn't flow as I'd like it, is something I'd be judged on. I can only see what I can do with my story within the parameters set, then decide whether I'd be okay with putting my name to it in a publication. Breaking into the commercial market can be a bit tough, as I expect everyone here knows, and decisions like this are obviously hard to make. But I'll be thinking very carefully before I do anything, very carefully indeed.

Carol

Are you on Facebook, Helenesme? There is a group on their dedicated to womags, Bring Back Fiction to Women's Magazines. It's not open, you'd have to apply to join.

helenesme

I'm not on Facebook, but I've been considering joining (signing up? Getting an account? Whatever the correct term is) for about the last eighteen months, and not getting round to it. Partly put off by the thought that I don't have a madly exciting glamorous life, so won't have riveting stuff to put on there, but I still keep meaning to do it. After all, even my dad is on Facebook, after years of pouring scorn on it! Anyway, Carol, you've given me an impetus, so thank you! Will try and get round to it in the next week or two, or three...

Phots Moll

It's their ball, so you play by their rules or choose a different pitch.

There are plenty of other magazines with different rules. http://womagwriter.blogspot.co.uk

helenesme

Absolutely, as I said in my second post on this thread. I'm just seeing what others think and working out what I'm happy to do. Many thanks for the link, will definitely take a look.

heather

Also be aware that all of the womags may edit your work without approval. Most will be sensitive but sometimes they will edit in clunky bits, grammatical errors, words you would never use or things that change the whole sense of a story! So you can't be too precious about your work if you sub there.

heather

Most writers will know that the above happens so won't judge you for it. Most readers won't care or won't notice. The editors know their markets and what their readers like.
Have you tried reading a few WN stories to see how other writers handle a lot of.dialogue? If you can't find any it may be that tennis match style dialogue doesn't work well in that format and isn't used.

heather

.

helenesme

I've looked at lots of different stories with different types of dialogue, and as you suggest, the "tennis match" style may not be appropriate for some publications; it's because of this that I'm re-writing it so that the plot and characters are the same but the dialogue distributed differently. It's very dialogue heavy - I know womags like a lot of dialogue, but I'm aware there can sometimes be too much for them! When I've re-written it I'll be able to decide if it works. I'm aware that publications edit out bits - it's happened to me before in my non-fiction days, even with very respectable publications - though I wasn't aware they edited stuff in! But if, as you say, most other writers are aware of this and don't judge, I'll try not to worry about it too much.

Scripto

I've developed my own dialogue preferences, and will only change them if asked to, or let editors change it themselves (if they like the story at all).
I don't see the point of putting a dialogue tag every single time, when it has already been established who is speaking. Also, I vary the 'he said' 'she said' by using the word 'replied' or anything else suitable. Further, if a character speaks twice in one line with a short break in between, while there's an 'action', then I use another set of speech marks but don't start a new line. It's the same person speaking!

Mrs Bear

Hi, Cuttle, welcome to TB. We do like to meet new people here. You could put up an introductory post to tell us something about you, and we'll all inundate you with greetings.

Scripto

Hi, Mrs Bear and everyone. I've always been interested in writing, and when I was much younger than I am now, I kept mainlyto poetry, and the odd tiny article, say, in a provincial mag. But it's the reason for keeping to poetry that's interesting:, a) It was short, and therefore a piece would get finished in one day, and b) I'd convinced myself I couldn't write plots for fiction. Now, many years on, I've discovered I can indeed write plots, and invent believable characters who interact consistently. I haven't written my first novel yet, but am well on my way with something that was originally intended as a short story, then became a long story, and now just keeps on going. On the way to a novella perhaps?
I also dwell quite a bit on style. Finding the 'right phrase' all the time. I am forever tweaking sentences until they are 'just right' (until I go through, forever revising, tweaking them all over again). And I'm quite happy to start sentences with 'And', as you can see, whether it be in dialogue, or a descriptive passage. See you later.

Mrs Bear

Hello, Cuttle, good to know more about you. Every writer learns on the job; well done for giving yourself more freedom to develop your plots, your style, and your writer's skills.
Don't over-revise all the time; you may miss something good. Sounds like you're finding your own voice, though. We all have one; it's trusting it that comes hard to us.
If the story wants to be told, you'll find a way to tell it. Good luck with it.

Phots Moll

Hi Cuttle.

Tiny Nell

Welcome to TB, Cuttle!

Carol

Hello Cuttle.

helenesme

Hello Cuttle, welcome.

Scripto

Thanks for all the welcomes. Not sure if I'm on the right bit of the website for what follows, but anyway:-

PAGE-LAYOUTS
How many words per page are 'standard? I am doing 1,1,1,2 margins on desktop, using 10 western font, and 1.5 line spacing. But I'm getting 18+ words per line on printouts, whereas most books appear to be about 12-14. Page depth looks o.k. at 36 lines. I therefore suspect that my story so far of 40 pages, may actually be about 60 pages. If correct, it will run to about 100 pages when finished.
John Cuttle
(Cuttle will do just fine)

-very bad screen jump here today

Mrs Bear

Cuttle, I'll paste this where people can see it.

boredrobots

I use Shunn Manuscript formatting for most of mine:

http://www.shunn.net/format/novel.html

http://www.shunn.net/format/story.html