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Ever felt like hanging yourself in the kitchen with a tea towel

edited June 2007 in - WM and WN
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  • Sorry, but i've had a rotten day and feel like crying. I had the first few chapters of my novel critiqued today, (first time i've had this done) and now i feel like throwing my book in the bin.
    I got pulled up on show not tell and tell not show aaaaarggggghhhhh!!!! Sorry must control my urges.
    Also they reckoned i made my characters stereotypical 'cos they talk with a northern accent. i talk with a northern accent and my book is set in the north east, help the tea towel is calling me.
    I've tried hanging myself with the cord on my mouse, but darn it, the thing isn't long enough.
    Right rant over, i suppose i need to start from page one and edit the bleedin' thing again. Ninth time i'll have done it. sob sob
    Anyone else ever felt like this, or am i just being far too sensitive.
  • it hurts.  Believe me it hurts but also believe me that it is better to be hurt now and attempt a full rewrite than have it thrown back at you time and again by publishers and/or agents.  Believe me on this one, one of my writing students (when I was working as a tutor, this is, ah the old days ...) sent out a book I had not seen.  It was awful, I realised that when she sent it to me.  The publisher returned it with NO! written across the first page.  Now that hurts!!!
    Forget the tea towel.  It isn't long enough anyway.  Your patience and your commitment to the novel is.  If it is 'show don't tell' then go for it, 'see' the story like a movie, get the people to tell the story, not you. And don't, don't don't give up.
  • Dorothy, you must have a heart of gold and the patience of a saint. You always come up with some wonderful advice. I think i must have read every single article i can lay my hands on describing showing and not telling, and still the bleeder trips me up.
    I promise i wont give up and i found out that the tea towel wasnt long enough, i'll just have to resort to vodka and coke and get blindingly drunk. Oh god, did i just use tell instead of show there. Sorry but i've had a bad couple of months with a death in the family, being told i may need a hysterectomy and i'm only 35 and now this. sometimes life just gets on top of you and everything gets taken to heart.
    Thank you for taking the time to respond to my query, one more time, you are an angel Dorothy.
  • It was on youwrite on, i only heard about that site today and thought i would give it a try, hopefully to cheer myself up a bit. By was that a big mistake. The critique was fair i suppose, but it still hurts.
    Must stop acting like a big baby and just get on with the editing.
  • Mandy, if you can write like your posts, you're there already. And I do hope you're joking about the tea towel, although my first thought was the same as Dorothy's - that it's too short.

    Remember, the critique is only one person's opinion - someone else may think something different entirely.

    And I was re-reading some of my published short stories today - one of the collections is being re-printed, and I've got the opportunity to change things. Some of the stories were obviously written before I'd done the creative writing course at my local Adult Education centre, as they were littered with exclamation marks and adverbs. I winced.

    So go ahead and have a jolly good cry, and mop your eyes on the tea towel.

    With your 'show, don't tell' problem - would more direct speech help? It's probably only a fad, anyway - in ten years' time, the fashion will be 'tell, don't show'!

    Best of luck.
  • Tracy i just searched YWO on talkback and it seems you are right, some people get good and bad reviews for the same book. i have had my novel proofread by a college lecturer of english, my sons former teacher and a librarian and they all really enjoyed my book. None of them pulled me up on show not tell and now i'm just bloody confused. i dont know whether to submit it for any more reviews at the moment until i've gone through it one more time.
    Oh god, why couldnt i just be a lollypop lady or something like that.
  • Jay you are a sweety and i have a confession to make. i googled you a while back and read the opening of one of your books (blow me if i can remember the name sorry) but it was the one where he picked up the young lad at the train station and took him back to his house. i've never read gay fiction before, but bugger me, i wanted to know what was going to happen and if they were going to get it together. There was definitely sexual tension between them. My friend is an editor at Nexus and also writes erotic novels but i've never read any of them, always bin too shy.
    Thank you for your words of advice, you are a love.
  • On the subject of dialects Mandy, I really recommend not to do it.  As a reader it irritates the hell out of me (I even did linguistics at the OU, and it irritated me then).  I promise you publishers hate it.

    My novel is set in Newcastle and in the beginning I wrote in Geordie dialect, and it didn't work.  I'm not D H Lawrence or Bernard Shaw.  I write in clean and crisp English, and occassionally add an 'aye' or 'whay-aye', but if I was to talk about 'blarin' or 'sneck' I think any readers outside of Tyneside would throw the book against the wall and never read one of my books again.

    Think about setting and character.  You can make your novel distinctly in the north-east without the greyhounds and cloth caps!.
  • i'm a geordie but i dont know what a (blarin or sneck) are. I  have put in the odd hinny or pet and called the wee small children bairns on the odd occasion. i do tend to put yer instead of your, you're etc as in (where yer goin') do you all agree this is bad and should be taken out. Lets have a vote, hands up, who says it should go.
  • Blarin means crying and sneck is nose.  My Grandfather was a shipbuilder for Swan Hunters, so I suppose those Geordie expressions is like the pitmatic of the mines.  From my time at the OU I believe that they are what is left of north-east English from before the standardisation when Caxton started printing in 'standard' English.

    I think you have to be consistant.  After what I've said, I think I'll remove the instances of dialect.  If I was going to use it, I would have to use phonetics all the way through.

    Where about is the novel set?.  My Dad is from Walker (Montague to be exact) and my Mam is from Brighton Grove and I don't think I've ever heard them say 'yer'.  I suspect it is more Sunderland than Newcastle.  I live in Cramlington so I'm a Northumbrian born and bred (born on the banks of the river Wansbeck rather than the Tyne).  I have slight inflections of Geordie and pitmatic, but it is more Northumbrian.  Although when I speak when in Scotland I get "your from Tyneside aren't you?".

    If you do choose to write in dialect I recommend you read some books on stylistics (linguistics in literature) and linguistics, David Crystal is very good.  We adapt our accents to whom we are speaking to; i.e we could say the same sentence to our boss or friends in the pub and we will choose different words.  Also read authors who do it well: Lady Chatterly's Lover (Lawrence), Pygmalion (Shaw), or Trainspotting (Welsh).
  • Hi again, Mandy. It's probably best to stick to whatever your computer likes, with just one or two exceptions. Ignore your computer if it's actually wrong or the word is beyond its comprehension. I sneak in "D'you" instead of "Do you"; and I also strike a blow for the letter z - I put realize, recognize and apologize (but usually s for other words) as they are alternative, sometimes preferred, spellings - it's not simply that UK=s and US=z. Make sure you're consistent, and that your editor knows & agrees.

    As for my work being erotic, I'm not sure about that. All About Sex definitely has more sex in it than the other books, but if it was straight it probably wouldn't qualify as erotic. The Dandelion Clock - the 'train station' one - certainly hasn't too much sex (although I must admit that there have been a few 'too much tea' remarks from readers - memo to self: must send copy to Boy George!).

    Hope you're feeling more optimistic now.
  • The book is set around Stockton, Newcastle and South Shields. My granfather also worked in the shipyards in wallsend, but unfortunately he was involved in an accident where the chain on one of the cranes snapped and hit him straight across his stomach. He died the day after i was born.
    I'll have a look at the information you gave me and have a think about the dialogue in my books. Thank you for your kind words of advice, i'm only just starting out in serious writing and you soon discover what is acceptable and what is not. i did write another novel but that is sitting in a box in the cupboard, i wasn't confidante enough to do anything with it once i'd finished it. That was set in stirling in scotland with the Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders. i had a lot of lovely phone calls with the museum staff at stirling castle. i hope your move to stirling goes well.
  • Wouldnt worry about it to be honest.  Writing is subjective, what is one mans bread is another mans poison, we don't all like our books the same.

    I think also that with youwriteon what is its strength is also its weakness.  The people who are critiquing (sp) your work are not always the best people to judge, what one aspiring writer may see as a flaw may not appear a flaw to a publisher.

    I think the best way of dealing with it is to wait until you have a few reviews and if the same thing comes up in each, then start to re-think your ideas and structures.

    To be perfectly honest I think that some people just love to criticise for the sake of it.
  • Thank you Nephilims, i have started trawling through my book again seeing if anything glaringly stupid jumps off the pages at me. i appreciate advice from everyone but as i say, i think i'm just feeling overly sensitive at the moment. i've just opened a bottle of wine and suddenly the world seems a really nice place to be. Hee Hee, i wont reply to anyone's messages later, 'cos i dont think i'll be able to see the screen. i only drink alcohol about 4 times a year but i really needed a drink today.
    God isnt wine good,would anyone like a glass. It's a rose matteus, pretty darn good.
  • Sorry I've only just got home, but I have to agree with the excellent advice you've been given so far.
    You need to give the general tone and way of saying things while only using occasional dialect words that make it clear where they come from.
    You have to remember that if it were a published book it could be read by someone who has never heard that dialect, and as said before they'd stop reading and be unlikely to ever read another book by you again.
    Criticism is like rejection, a facet of the writers life.
    A good night's sleep and it will seem less frustrating tomorrow.
  • Tracy you really are a love, or hinny, or pet. sorry enough is enough. As i say, I just let things get on top of me and talking to people on here and all the advice and support they've given has put a smile on my face and made me feel a little better.
    I've started addressing the dialect thing and i'm almost finished taking out some of it that isnt needed. I think because it was my first critique that it just hit really hard and i'm a bit of a wuss. i'll continue drinking my wine and i've put the tea towel back in the cupboard for now.
    Thank you again for pointing me in the direction of the other threads concerning YWO, they really were helpful.
  • This is getting really spooky Mandy.  My Dad's cousin was in the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in the 60/70's, posted at Stirling Castle.

    Shame that you never finished it, it's really intrigued me.
  • How is it going Mandy? I'm still trying to get the hang of 'show not tell', sometimes I do get it, it just clicks.
  • Dear Stirling
    I did finish the book, its a whole novel complete at 122,000 words. In 1942 My grandmother was forced into an arranged marriage to a farmers son who lived in Stirling. They were only married two weeks when he was sent with the argyles to fight in Algiers in Operation Torch. Not long after that he was killed in action and my grandmother was left a widow.
    The gist of it is, my grandmother moved back to whitley bay and worked in the ammunitions factory and then she met my grandad. He was a real charmer who worked in the spanish city. One thing led to another and my grandma ended up pregnant with my auntie. She pleaded with my granda to marry her but he wouldnt while a war was on, eventually she became pregnant with my mam. Again my grandma asked if they could get married and this was when he revealed that he was already married and had 7 children in newcastle. This never put my grandma off and she went on to have another 4 children with my granda. His wife used to pay my grandma rent so that my granda could stay at her house. His wife thought my grandma was just my granda's landlady, little did she know. There are twists and turns throught the book that i havent revealed here and plenty of action from the battle of monte casino, but as i say the book is just sitting in a cupboard not read by anyone.
  • Well after several glasses of wine and a good nights sleep, i think i feel ready to face the world once more. I have taken all the obvious bits of dialect out of my book and now i'm really going for it with this show not tell lark. It does get a bit wearisome at times, when all you want to say is "She said angrily" But i realise now that i must show that she is angry. Pity i can't write a scene involving a tea towel, i've got plenty of experience of that and could adequately describe it in detail. Anyway, i'm all optimistic and smiley today ;.) So i'll keep you all updated on my progress.
  • Thank you tracy, i'm even excited 'cos i'm getting new tyres for my car today. By god, some people are easily pleased 8.) me wearing my glasses
  • Se Mandy, you've got it in perspective today. Have fun.
  • glad to find you more upbeat today! and thank you for the lovely comments!
  • Hello mandy.  Glad you're having a better day.  [My baby is in for his 30 000 miles service today (well, more like 34936 ...). They just rang me to kindly inform me that I needed 3 tyres, windscreen wipers and brake discs replaced ... which effectively tripled the original cost of the service ... OUCH!] 
  • hi mandy, just caught up with your thread, sorry i didnt get the chance to give you some sympathy!  glad your feeling better (how's the hangover?)  these show not tell things are slippery little bleeders just when you think you have it covered WHAMMY! A nasty little thing sneaks in.  i have such a hang up with tenses.  i obviously talk in several tenses at once because in one sentance i will swap from past present and future then back again - but it all makes perfect sence to me!  i wonder if i am having a parallel life sometimes and i keep bumping into the other me! still cant let the buggers grind ya doon like.  as for the rest of the stuff if you are serious about getting your work out there, what about a professional crit? it does cost but may be more relevent to actually being published - a few people have commented on earlier threads about the validity of these sites.  some people can be rude for rude's sake rather than objective.  take EVERY comment with a pinch of salt and allways have the vodka in the cupboard! - just being nosy but do you REALLY drink it with coke?  i've never heard of it.  have you ever tried coke, tia maria and brandy?  its yummy - but take my advice dont have a treble!  it's BAAD for the carpet!
  • Ouch MDD, that's going to cost.
    Never heard of vodka and coke, where have you been Amanda!
  • i have been living under a small moss encrusted rock and room service only provides wine and whisky (obviously not at once!) i must have led rather a sad existence still the good news is i do have vodka and i do have coke!  might just give it a try!
  • I like a vodka and coke, but like a Jack Daniels and coke even more!.

    That's a fascinating story Mandy.  You never know, maybe our Grandparents may have met at some point!.

    I agree with getting it professionally critiqued.  Maybe take a look at someone like Cornerstones, or Hilary Johnson.  I think I will do that after this draft.  I know it will hurt, but I need someone to be honest with me and my work.
  • Sorry back again.

    Mandy, if you are interested in getting professionally critiqued, you can go through WM's critique service.

    If you go to the Home Study option, at the top you will see the Critique Service, and it gives contact details and what you can submit. 
  • Thank you stirling, i'll have a look at that but as a poor writer who doesnt have a normal job i'm afraid i couldnt afford an awful lot. That may be something i might have to think about if all other avenues prove fruitless.
    You never know stirling we could be distant, distant, distant distant relatives, or we could both just come from the same part of the country. Anyway thanks a lot for all your help.
  • Here's one of my little gems:

    "I'm sorry," apologised Greg.

    P.S. Some of my writing is OK!
  • ^^ wow was he apologising???  I wouldnt have got that from the dialogue alone (please note this comment is dripping with silliness of the highest level and no malicious intent).

    I once wrote something that made it sound like my main characters best friend was an evening meal - cant remember exactly but hubby laughed about it for days, my punctuation used to really suck.  I think thats why I stopped letting him proof read for me.

    Oh and i have to say I am typing this on a really fast computer (wheeeeeee - my new upgrade)
  • I wouldn't worry, I think Jay has gone into overdrive since he's come back. Must be feeling a little better.
  • I love the typos I find when I'm re-reading/editing.

    A few hours ago when adding a sentence or two, to the manuscript and instead of saying the Haymarket Bus Station, it came out Haymarket Bust Station.
  • I love the typos I find when I'm re-reading/editing.

    A few hours ago when adding a sentence or two, to the manuscript and instead of saying the Haymarket Bus Station, it came out Haymarket Bust Station.
  • That is funny.
  • Came across this thread with everyone talking about the stuff in their stories that make them wince. How about this, from the Writers' & Artists' Yearbook 2007? It's page 23, for those who have the book. It's an ad for the agent, Darley Anderson, and there's a quote from Lee Child: 'There are agents. There are good agents. There are super agents. And then there's Darley Anderson.' Is it only me, or is this saying Darley Anderson is crap. :)
  • you could certainly read it that way!
  • Oh yesssss!!!
  • I second that Darley Anderson are crap (and blinkered).
  • Had a bad experience with them Stirling?
  • Hello Mandy0799,

    Your thread title paints a vivid illusion, as already commented by JayMandal, there is no cause for too much self flagellation.

    To write words that satisfy, even please, every reader is impossible. That does not give you permission to cease attempts at capturing attention with creative juxtaposition of scenic props. Foregoing comments support worth of collecting more critiques before starting serious editing of your work.

    You have another, completed, work "not read by anyone" and now would seem a practical time to bring it out of the cupboard, dust and read it. Then you may edit and submit that for consideration by which time you will have a balanced perspective of this, newer, novel.

    Keep positive.
  • I think I've mentioned before an unfair rejection letter from them.

    Two seconds, I'll find the file . . .

    Here it is:

    No thanks because the protaganist is male.
    Women like to read books with a female central character.
    Young men don't buy (underlined) this sort of novel.
    Could be wrong of course and it may be a bestseller.
    Good luck.

    That was my first rejection letter, and it hurt.  Okay not bad going getting a form letter with the agent writing this in their own hand.  So the novel must have been alright otherwise she wouldn't have bothered.  What irritated me was that as a woman I know what she is saying is crap.  I don't even think about the gender of a protaganist, and come to think a woman would actually put me off. 

    Okay they might be good agents but they have such a black and white view, and it annoys me.  What they are saying is they would have rejected Ian Rankin, Val McDermid or JK Rowling.

    Mind you, what do you expect from Martina Cole's agent?.     

    Actually Mandy, can I use the tea towel once your finished?.   
  • After you with the teatowel please Stirling.  I have just realised that over the past 2 weeks I have sent out 6 articles and short stories - and that was after I sent the first three chapters of my book out for the second time - and nobody wants any of it.
    Are we masochists or optimists?
  • Both surely. If we weren't we wouldn't keep doing it, and the world of writing would be much poorer.
  • Dear all, i think i will have to start renting out my tea towel by the hour. It seems it is in great demand lately. i also received a hand written note from an agent on friday about my novel, it goes like this, well i think it does but the handwriting is so appauling you could insert a few of your own words, anyway. It says:
    Many thanks for sending me this material which i have considered carefully. While there is much to admire, it doesnt quite capture my imagination sufficiently, so i am going to follow my gut instincts and pass on this occasion. Best of luck with it elsewhere. All the best.
    I'm still trying to work out if this is a good rejection or not.
  • stirling, i would take that as a compliment. nowhere did they say it was total crap.  they also bothered to say something to you! something of a rarity i believe!  i would suggest that you obviously had a rather good story!

    as for you martha you obviously need a good slap if your upset about sending out 6 articles in one week!  i cant finish this article i am writing now! its driving me potty.  i am not enjoying this factual part of the course i am doing.  i guess i dont have enough to say! (NOT true my husband just said!)  it sounds like you are doing a TERIFIC job! keep up the good work and hand over that b****y towel!
  • Amanda i think you are in more need of the tea towel today than me, so i will gladly relinquish ownership of it and hand it over to you. Try a couple of glasses of wine tonight and look at your work with fresh, if not slightly hazed eyes tomorrow. Life is shite sometimes, but like everyone told me on here, it can only get better. Oh i felt like bursting into song there and i dont know why. i have a kitchen that is swimming in water cos of this bloody rain and i've had a permanent headache for the last four days. Actually i may need the tea towel back to mop up me floor. Keep yer chin up Amanda ;.)
  • oh mandy that sounds awful.  Are the cupboards alright?  i flooded my kitchen last winter.  we have rather basic facilities and if you want to use the dishwasher or the washing machine you have to put the hose down the plug hole of the sink - well i think you can guess where this is leading! - yes i confess i forgot.  i was outside when my husband returned 'has an elephant pissed on our door step again?' he said.  well i turned around and the water was running down the front steps! opened the front door and most of the water had run to the left hand side of the kitchen submurging the bottom shelf of the fridge.  my cats - who USUALLY hate water - decided we were jolly kind people to provide them with an indoor paddling pool and were merrily galloping through the afformentioned lake then using my three-peice as a towel! gits! so had to wash all the covers and mat in the sitting room aswell as almost killing the fridge and ruining all the food on the bottom shelf!  luckily the chocolate was on a higher shelf and the wine was safely stowed away.  i hope it clears up for you soon.
  • i am going to work on the wine thing! i can sympathise with the headache i've got toothache! we are a right couple of mandys aren't we! i'll happily share the towel with you (perhaps some wine aswell!).  chin up to you too - especially if the water gets any deeper! i'm thinking of you.
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