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WOW! I have resisted reading or commenting on this thread till now, simply because I also did not know what the title meant therefore didn't think it relevant to me.
My only comment is on the "side" of the "it's fine as it is" thinking, as it's all been said very eloquently.
I am relatively new on here too, and am using it BECAUSE of the simplicity of it, not NOT staying because of any features it lacks. A smiley is perfectly adequate for me, and as has been said, we are supposed to be writer's after all.
Good point of the discussion - I feel an article coming on.... Thanks everyone !
:)
I intended to keep my mouth shut after making my original post, but I can't.
Joey said:
Once it's installed, anyone who doesn't like the new features can simply ignore them. Nobody needs a microwave, but there's no harm in having one in the kitchen. Ditto these new-fangled tea bag thingies. I say put the tea bags and the microwave in the kitchen. Anyone who prefers tea leaves and a tea-strainer can continue to use them, the rest of us can carry on with our new-fangled 21st century lives.
Joey - surely you must realise that when you post remarks like that you are going to goad people? You seem to enjoy being contentious - okay fine - but don't be surprised if your comments provoke a response.
May I also say that if you are going to try to provoke the older members of this forum by being a bit insulting, then get your facts straight. I believe microwaves and tea bags have been around since the seventies.
Now can I politely suggest that this silliness stops?
Joey and Riaz - As no one else is interested in your plans to reinvent Talkback, I suggest you start using the Whisper facility and discuss it between you without involving the rest of us.
Making offensive comments to people, apologising and then making further offensive comments doesn't make you a welcome member of this forum.
Possibly it was a little over the top, Claudia. It really wasn't as intended as such. I do feel quite strongly about this subject, and I am rather exasperated by the prevailing view; perhaps that showed through in that remark. But I would point out that it's not directed at particular individual. If you see that remark as insulting, then I apologise, it was intended more in the spirit of robust debate.
Heather Nintendo changes roughly every six months, its called marketing we went from gameboy to gameboy advance to DS to Ds lite, our house is full of technology, some already out of date. All things computer change so frequently it is actually scary. Even Microsoft changes (although I do wish they wouldn't).
You are never going to get a system that everybody wants or likes. I for one am not keen on this board, I find it archaic, but I stay for the people and the content, but I agree that it isn't the easiest of boards, PMs would be better than Whispering and the ability to underline and italicise would sometimes help emphasise the meaning of some posts therefore making it easier to understand the true meaning (which is a hard thing on forums).
Just to add, to be fair many of us have embraced the use of icons and smileys, both we didnt have on the old board, so I cannot understand why some people find it hard to understand why others would like different features which they might find useful if we had them.
I did say I wouldn't comment on this thread again but the voice of reason seems to have crept in - I don't feel we need underlining and italics. I advise people regularly not to use italics when writing if at all possible and never to use underlining, as it is an amateurish way to write. Any books that come to me like that which I want to publish, the italics and the underlining are/is taken out. People can write without that facility. Smileys help when people want to show they are being humorous when it might not be apparent. Icons are a bit of fun. Whispers work better than I hoped when we began with them, I use it a lot and so do others, to write to me. We don't need the fonts and photos and pictures and gizmos. What this does is show us how to write without all that, as a book will not allow you such liberties. If we can make ourselves understood without them, that is the way we should go, because of that fact. Imagine sending a story or an article in covered in graphics, pictures, italics, underlining, to an editor - a sure way to get it rejected. Writing a post here is as difficult sometimes as writing an article. We do it without gizmos.
My gripe is that 99% of the people who register for TB get on with the board as it is. Then someone comes along and says 'oh this is fun but let's have a party with gizmos' and gets uptight when we say no thanks, we prefer the mother's tea party.
What has to be remembered is that TB is free, WN created it, maintain it, let us rant and rave and laugh and joke and learn on it. Let's not criticise that which we have for free. Let's use it to help one another, support one another, enjoy the fun, learn from one another, without software discussions coming in which are above the heads of most of us but more than that, out of our hands as we do not pay for the service! If we did, we could ask for changes, demand them, even but we are not paying users. I don't go anywhere else, I prefer to spend my time here. It suits me and judging by the comments on this thread, it suits a lot of others too. We did lose a lot of people when the board changed, a lot. I am bothered by how many departed. Add another load of gizmos and we would lose a load more, for sure. This is a comfort zone, let's not destroy it with technological wonders most if not all writers can happily live without. Chalk on cave walls, perhaps, but the early cave paintings surive to this day, do they not? Now let's go create priceless words that will also survive XXX thousand years, too. (BTW, a lot of writers on here prefer to draft in longhand before using their computers. Pen on paper works for them.)
This site changes once more and I'm outta here. I just want the written word. Italics would be nice but that's all. If I want 'whistles and bells' I'll go elsewhere. On here I just want to communicate by writing with my fellow TB friends. Even though I use the Smilies I would prefer we didn't have them. I would rather see a written response than a smirking, yellow ball grinning out at me. I started reading this thread and my usual Jewish thought was 'hey, don't get involved, it's not your business.' But I made it my business. End.
And I like writing with pen on paper. I used to teach Computer Science so I'm not exactly a technophobe. I just like snuggling down on a comfy old sofa and that's what Talkback is to me...
Dorothy, my point is that none of the extra features are mandatory. People can choose to use or ignore them as they see fit. Because of the nature of this place -peopled with writers - I really don't think we would end up with silly, garish posts. People would use Rich Text constructively.
You obviously eschew the use of pretty much any kind of text manipulation, that's great, I respect that. But it's not the only way. Italics have been in the King James bible for 400 years. I have next to me Robert Harris's best-seller, "Ghost", it includes (page 223) bold, underline and varying fonts, elsewhere in the book I'm sure italics could be found. His publisher certainly didn't reject the book because he'd included that kind of formatting.
This whole thing is about communication; you prefer to use a minimal set of tools, others would prefer a slightly larger one; there's no right, no wrong, just different ways of getting the message across. And the way people communicate is evolving. I hate text-speak, but I can't deny that it's widely used, and I could see a situation in which it would be a good idea to include it in a piece of writing. You might disagree, but I'd claim that most people now expect to be able to use Rich Text when using the internet. And that will increasingly be the case as time passes.
Other than Rich Text, there are various other features which some people would find useful: thread management, e-mail notification and the like. Again all completely optional, the fact that another user was using those features would in no way impinge upon your use of the board. You wouldn't even know that it was happening.
Regarding the cost: these boards are not expensive. I think a typical license might be something like one or two hundred pounds a year. The maintenance would be lower than that of the current one, in which it seems that any new feature has to be written by the Web Master. The overall cost might even be lowered.
Again - I know I keep repeating it - my point is just that the new boards add choice. Nobody would be forced to use any of the new features, and I personally trust that the people who write here would not mess up the whole thing by using Rich Text, photos, smilies and the rest inappropriately.
You'd like to see something different. We get it, we get it already. We're happy as things are. I don't contribute much but I'm happy with the way things are too. WHen you've been here as long as Dorothy, Jenny, Carol and a few others you might have earned your stripes enough to have a whinge but the way I see it, you're fairly new and you're shaking an old reliable pot. Lets just say you've made your point mate and drop the subject, okay? You're not winning friends or influencing people.
Claudia, if I was able to use the 'quote' facility available on a PHPBB board, I would respond to your post by pasting your quotes and replying to them in an eloquent, intelligent and concise manner.
As it is, there is no quote facility here, so I can't be bothered.
"You'd like to see something different. We get it, we get it already. We're happy as things are. I don't contribute much but I'm happy with the way things are too. WHen you've been here as long as Dorothy, Jenny, Carol and a few others you might have earned your stripes enough to have a whinge but the way I see it, you're fairly new and you're shaking an old reliable pot. Lets just say you've made your point mate and drop the subject, okay? You're not winning friends or influencing people."
What a lot of nonsense. You never have to 'earn your stripes' as you condesendingly put it. A person has a right to say anything they want if their argument is put forward in an intelligent, cohesive manner. If you feel threatened by a person's point of view Hubble, don't hide behind a fallacious argument like that. If you can't reply with some respect, then don't reply at all.
JoeyBlow has constructed a well thought out argument and has presented his points clearly. If you don't like it, stop reading them and stop replying in this thread.
Hi Hubble, I find the debate itself interesting. It really is about communication. A lot of people here have views diametrically opposed to mine on this subject. I find that bemusing and intriguing. I agree the personal stuff is tedious, gets in the way of the discussion and shows none of us in particularly flattering light; I'm more than happy to drop that side of the thread. The debate about the merits of using Rich Text and the like will go where it will. I'll follow it.
"You'd like to see something different. We get it, we get it already. We're happy as things are. I don't contribute much but I'm happy with the way things are too. WHen you've been here as long as Dorothy, Jenny, Carol and a few others you might have earned your stripes enough to have a whinge but the way I see it, you're fairly new and you're shaking an old reliable pot. Lets just say you've made your point mate and drop the subject, okay? You're not winning friends or influencing people."
"What a lot of nonsense. You never have to 'earn your stripes' as you condesendingly put it. A person has a right to say anything they want if their argument is put forward in an intelligent, cohesive manner. If you feel threatened by a person's point of view Hubble, don't hide behind a fallacious argument like that. If you can't reply with some respect, then don't reply at all".
-----
Guys. Let's not go down that route. Don't make remarks about one another. Talk about communications and stuff. It's interesting.
The interesting thing here JoeyBlow, is that people appear THREATENED by your observations and ideas. THATS what concerns me the most. Instead of embracing new points of view and using their writing skills to present opposing arguments, they retreat into playground name-calling and closing ranks...
Curious.
(and if this was a PHPBB board I would use italics instead of capital letters in the two words I highlighted)
Whatever, Riaz. If it is playground stuff, then replying in kind is also playground stuff. It all just degenerates into no-win point scoring. I thought the thread was back on topic after Dorothy's reply and my response. I'd just as soon pick it up from there.
Yes - IF I was replying in kind. However, I certainly am not. I am using my skills as a writer to point out how, in the absence of our usual cues of facial expressions to discern what a person really means, what they are writing CAN be interpreted as playground name-calling...
And the comment on earning your stripes annoyed me as reading through back posts, a HUGE number of posters have built up a huge post count just by adding a 'smiley' or simply saying 'lol'. One person has over 200 'lol's ' making up their total posts...
So if that's the way I have to go to earn my stripes...
Indeed. Internet communication is a minefield. Trying to edge things back on to topic again, we don't have facial expressions, but we do have smileys. I think the smiley is an excellent example of the way communication has evolved. It can go an awful long way to oiling the wheels of an internet discussion.
For those who don't know, we had an incendiary thread running not so long back, and we existing long time TBers agreed to use the word DOUSE to mean end it now. So please, end it now.
Well, you may have agreed to use 'Douse' to end a thread - it does not mean others have to comply. I would never, in a real life conversation, say "Hang on, we're going off topic" or "Douse!" (though I may try it later down the pub...)
Let it die a natural death. I'm sure it won't be long.
(If this was a PHPBB board, a moderator could easily lock it...)
And Dorothy, long-time TB'ers does not equate to 'Long time members who have a history of posting thoughtful, intelligent remarks on topics'. It could easily mean 'I registered in 2006 and out of the 150 posts I've made, 80 of them have been smilies and 70 of them have been 'I agree with that'.
It is always dangerous to equate longevity with a person's worth.
Riaz, you too have not been around long enough to know there is no moderator. WN let us get on with it and moderate ourselves, until we report a post. We all agreed to comply, those who were there at the time anyway. Play fair, this has run its course. And please, stop with the PHBB board. As I just pointed out, there are things You Do Not KNow and that makes the comment redundant.
Hey... I just found out what a PHPBB board is ! In case you didn't know everyone, seems it's a Richard Dawkins forum type ! I am quite in line with some of Richard Dawkins thinking BUT - should I look ? do I care? (Got this information from the other thread that you are "debating" on Riaz...)
Riaz, I know the worth of those who have contributed many many posts here, having been a TBer from the start. Let's not get into that, shall we? This is supposed to be a 'friendly' site.
Look, I added another one to my vast amount of posts. I think some of my many many postings have been to do with writing, answering writing queries and generally helping to hold people up when they've needed it. The rest were wasted, of course.
I've just read through the DOUSE posts. This is not intended to be inflamatory or to resurrect a thread if everyone wants it to die.
I'd just make the point that I do think the things that we were talking about were intersting and worthy of discussion, and that rather than just killing a thread, an agreement from all concerned to limit remarks soley to the topic at hand, and to refrain absolutley from remarks directed at other participiants, would be a way of keeping an interesting discussion alive while at the same time taking the heat out of it.
The whole point is, Joey, the things we were talking about were not 'interesting and worthy of discussion,' as many said they were not interested. That stuff is for computer people, not ordinary people who use computers like glorified typewriters to cut down the work of editing. This is a writing forum. People come here with writing - marketing - English queries, not software queries and comments on the structure of the site. This thread has run its course. Riaz has backed out. Time for DOUSE.
I'd be happy to continue this discussion with you, Dorothy. I don't agree that this is stuff is for computer people; ordinary people are now using the internet in their millions, and many of them - the majority, I would suggest - are using the new software. But I don't want to labour the point; if you want to end it, that's fine. I don't really think a DOUSE is necessary, if people are no longer interested, they simply stop posting.
"People come here with writing - marketing - English queries, not software queries and comments on the structure of the site. This thread has run its course. "
Not nice for a new member to read... software queries, comments on structure as you put it are all welcome. What do you think 'off topic' sections are for ?
DorthyD - if people aren't interested in a thread, then DONT POST in it !!! Your comment in the first sentence of your last post smacks of ignorance. If 'many people said they were not interested' then let the people who ARE interested continue the discussion !!!!
(by the way - because of your hostile behaviour, I am a long time member with nearly 500 posts who feels forced into creating another ID here in fear of a backlash if my comments were posted under my normal name)
Comments
My only comment is on the "side" of the "it's fine as it is" thinking, as it's all been said very eloquently.
I am relatively new on here too, and am using it BECAUSE of the simplicity of it, not NOT staying because of any features it lacks. A smiley is perfectly adequate for me, and as has been said, we are supposed to be writer's after all.
Good point of the discussion - I feel an article coming on.... Thanks everyone !
:)
Joey said:
Once it's installed, anyone who doesn't like the new features can simply ignore them. Nobody needs a microwave, but there's no harm in having one in the kitchen. Ditto these new-fangled tea bag thingies. I say put the tea bags and the microwave in the kitchen. Anyone who prefers tea leaves and a tea-strainer can continue to use them, the rest of us can carry on with our new-fangled 21st century lives.
Joey - surely you must realise that when you post remarks like that you are going to goad people? You seem to enjoy being contentious - okay fine - but don't be surprised if your comments provoke a response.
May I also say that if you are going to try to provoke the older members of this forum by being a bit insulting, then get your facts straight. I believe microwaves and tea bags have been around since the seventies.
Now can I politely suggest that this silliness stops?
Making offensive comments to people, apologising and then making further offensive comments doesn't make you a welcome member of this forum.
Jenny, I would genuinely appreciate it if you would expand upon what you mean by that.
You are never going to get a system that everybody wants or likes. I for one am not keen on this board, I find it archaic, but I stay for the people and the content, but I agree that it isn't the easiest of boards, PMs would be better than Whispering and the ability to underline and italicise would sometimes help emphasise the meaning of some posts therefore making it easier to understand the true meaning (which is a hard thing on forums).
(note use of capitals to put emphasis on a ward)
My gripe is that 99% of the people who register for TB get on with the board as it is. Then someone comes along and says 'oh this is fun but let's have a party with gizmos' and gets uptight when we say no thanks, we prefer the mother's tea party.
What has to be remembered is that TB is free, WN created it, maintain it, let us rant and rave and laugh and joke and learn on it. Let's not criticise that which we have for free. Let's use it to help one another, support one another, enjoy the fun, learn from one another, without software discussions coming in which are above the heads of most of us but more than that, out of our hands as we do not pay for the service! If we did, we could ask for changes, demand them, even but we are not paying users. I don't go anywhere else, I prefer to spend my time here. It suits me and judging by the comments on this thread, it suits a lot of others too. We did lose a lot of people when the board changed, a lot. I am bothered by how many departed. Add another load of gizmos and we would lose a load more, for sure. This is a comfort zone, let's not destroy it with technological wonders most if not all writers can happily live without. Chalk on cave walls, perhaps, but the early cave paintings surive to this day, do they not? Now let's go create priceless words that will also survive XXX thousand years, too. (BTW, a lot of writers on here prefer to draft in longhand before using their computers. Pen on paper works for them.)
And I like writing with pen on paper. I used to teach Computer Science so I'm not exactly a technophobe. I just like snuggling down on a comfy old sofa and that's what Talkback is to me...
You obviously eschew the use of pretty much any kind of text manipulation, that's great, I respect that. But it's not the only way. Italics have been in the King James bible for 400 years. I have next to me Robert Harris's best-seller, "Ghost", it includes (page 223) bold, underline and varying fonts, elsewhere in the book I'm sure italics could be found. His publisher certainly didn't reject the book because he'd included that kind of formatting.
This whole thing is about communication; you prefer to use a minimal set of tools, others would prefer a slightly larger one; there's no right, no wrong, just different ways of getting the message across. And the way people communicate is evolving. I hate text-speak, but I can't deny that it's widely used, and I could see a situation in which it would be a good idea to include it in a piece of writing. You might disagree, but I'd claim that most people now expect to be able to use Rich Text when using the internet. And that will increasingly be the case as time passes.
Other than Rich Text, there are various other features which some people would find useful: thread management, e-mail notification and the like. Again all completely optional, the fact that another user was using those features would in no way impinge upon your use of the board. You wouldn't even know that it was happening.
Regarding the cost: these boards are not expensive. I think a typical license might be something like one or two hundred pounds a year. The maintenance would be lower than that of the current one, in which it seems that any new feature has to be written by the Web Master. The overall cost might even be lowered.
Again - I know I keep repeating it - my point is just that the new boards add choice. Nobody would be forced to use any of the new features, and I personally trust that the people who write here would not mess up the whole thing by using Rich Text, photos, smilies and the rest inappropriately.
The horse is dead, stop flogging the poor thing.
As it is, there is no quote facility here, so I can't be bothered.
"You'd like to see something different. We get it, we get it already. We're happy as things are. I don't contribute much but I'm happy with the way things are too. WHen you've been here as long as Dorothy, Jenny, Carol and a few others you might have earned your stripes enough to have a whinge but the way I see it, you're fairly new and you're shaking an old reliable pot. Lets just say you've made your point mate and drop the subject, okay? You're not winning friends or influencing people."
What a lot of nonsense. You never have to 'earn your stripes' as you condesendingly put it. A person has a right to say anything they want if their argument is put forward in an intelligent, cohesive manner. If you feel threatened by a person's point of view Hubble, don't hide behind a fallacious argument like that. If you can't reply with some respect, then don't reply at all.
JoeyBlow has constructed a well thought out argument and has presented his points clearly. If you don't like it, stop reading them and stop replying in this thread.
"What a lot of nonsense. You never have to 'earn your stripes' as you condesendingly put it. A person has a right to say anything they want if their argument is put forward in an intelligent, cohesive manner. If you feel threatened by a person's point of view Hubble, don't hide behind a fallacious argument like that. If you can't reply with some respect, then don't reply at all".
-----
Guys. Let's not go down that route. Don't make remarks about one another. Talk about communications and stuff. It's interesting.
Curious.
(and if this was a PHPBB board I would use italics instead of capital letters in the two words I highlighted)
And the comment on earning your stripes annoyed me as reading through back posts, a HUGE number of posters have built up a huge post count just by adding a 'smiley' or simply saying 'lol'. One person has over 200 'lol's ' making up their total posts...
So if that's the way I have to go to earn my stripes...
:)
Let it die a natural death. I'm sure it won't be long.
(If this was a PHPBB board, a moderator could easily lock it...)
And Dorothy, long-time TB'ers does not equate to 'Long time members who have a history of posting thoughtful, intelligent remarks on topics'. It could easily mean 'I registered in 2006 and out of the 150 posts I've made, 80 of them have been smilies and 70 of them have been 'I agree with that'.
It is always dangerous to equate longevity with a person's worth.
I am not Christopher Robin you know (though wish I had been...)
Look, I added another one to my vast amount of posts. I think some of my many many postings have been to do with writing, answering writing queries and generally helping to hold people up when they've needed it. The rest were wasted, of course.
We are all adults and it is possible to 'agree to disagree' - yes ?
I'd just make the point that I do think the things that we were talking about were intersting and worthy of discussion, and that rather than just killing a thread, an agreement from all concerned to limit remarks soley to the topic at hand, and to refrain absolutley from remarks directed at other participiants, would be a way of keeping an interesting discussion alive while at the same time taking the heat out of it.
:)
I don't really fit here but I do genuinely (believe it or not) wish you all the very best and good luck with the writing.
Just curious, Riaz ,if you're still around. which other forums have you found?
Not nice for a new member to read... software queries, comments on structure as you put it are all welcome. What do you think 'off topic' sections are for ?
DorthyD - if people aren't interested in a thread, then DONT POST in it !!! Your comment in the first sentence of your last post smacks of ignorance. If 'many people said they were not interested' then let the people who ARE interested continue the discussion !!!!