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How many "that's" or none at all ?

edited June 2010 in - Writing Problems
Just a query to ask others views.

The sentence I am currently writing (on a word doc !) is

"They both knew that that was not true"

HA! Of course too many thats ? So how about "They both knew that was not true" (doesn't sound right to me, somehow)

or... "They both knew that this was not true" ??

Any thoughts ?

Comments

  • I would prefer '..."They both knew that this was not the case"...' IF the OTHER [of the 'both'] has said whatever it is that IS'NT the case.
  • Rightly or wrongly I would have written,

    'They both knew that wasn't true.'


    or 'They both knew that it wasn't true.' Depending on the context.
  • I've seen 'that that' and 'had had' in some books and don't like it, as I have to stop and work out what it means. It is best rewritten, methinks. Prefer your last sentence.
  • edited June 2010
    Depends on your character who is saying it...And if you want them to be formal. And are we talking an actual case (as in suitcase ) or situation?
    But I'd go for the 'this' or 'they both knew that/this wasn't the case'.

    I go by what sounds right when read- which may not neccesarily be grammatically correct.
  • Thanks all.
    There is no case, Carol, it was the truth we were talking of. Bill brought that one in - he must be dreaming of holidays :)

    Think I will go with the "this" one (or after sleeping on it, maybe the one "that" one! )
  • With only that line it could have been a real case involved...;)
  • "They both knew it wasn't true"

    Why is the "that" needed?
  • Unless it's dialogue I'd avoid 'that that' and 'had had'. There are other ways to phrase your sentence.

    I'd go with 'They both knew that wasn't true.'
  • [quote=lexia]There is no case, Carol, it was the truth we were talking of. Bill brought that one in - he must be dreaming of holidays [/quote]

    Dont know why I did that. The word 'case' not mention. I meant 'truth' of course and not suitcase! :-)

    * two of mine offspring are moving from their present [separate] accommodation and looking for somewhere else and living here off and on. One of them arrived here at 6 15 am with suitcases and bags - just dumped them - and off he went at 6 45 to Glastonbury. Bit like a hotel here, and haven't room for all this stuff! Perhaps I have suitcases on the brain! :-)
  • The joys of parenthood Bill...:)
  • Really, Lexia. I could see that that 'that that' that you had would never work like that.
  • Declutter it - they both knew it was untrue.
  • I have been thinking about this. 'They both knew that wasn't true', just doesn't sound right to me but I don't know why. Is it because 'they both knew' and 'that wasn't true' can stand alone as phrases/clauses so you need a preposition to link them, perhaps?

    If one character said, 'I'm forty, actually', and her friends didn't believe her I think it sounds fine to say, 'They both knew that that wasn't true', because the second 'that' is the thing that they know not to be true. (Now did I have to put a 'that' before 'they know not to be true' in that sentence?!!!) Is is the difference between 'to know something' and 'to know that something is or isnt the case'? Blimey, there's Bill's case back again!!! I think I'll give up and hope that a grammarian comes along :)
  • edited June 2010
    Just to keep this going...

    The sentence in context !

    "She soon lost count of how many times he came to visit after that. Always he made some excuse of “army business” with her father but they both knew that this wasn’t really true. "

    Bill : pick up one of those cases (or preferably a rucksack) and get off to Glastonbury yourself ! Pick me up on the way if you have time :)
  • Now I wouldn't have had a problem putting 'that that wasn't really true' in there but I guess 'that this wasn't really true' works equally well!
  • edited June 2010
    I want to go to Glastonbury....I want to see The Gorillaz :(
  • I'm looking forward to watching it all from the comfort of my sofa!

    Sorry, off topic. I am a troll! To get back to the issue in hand:

    In what context can you have five 'ands' in a row?

    Answer: A signwriter was commissioned to produce a new pub sign for 'The Coach and Horses' public house. The landlord complained about the layout, pointing out that, "There should be more space between 'Coach' and 'and' and 'and' and 'Horses'."
  • Not as good as 'James while John had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the teacher' :D

    Feel free to fill in the required punctuation :)
  • Don't get it!
  • James, while John had had "had", had had "had had"; "had had" had had a better effect on the teacher.

    The meaning could thus be rendered "It was the case that while John used 'had,' James used 'had had.' The teacher preferred 'had had.'"
  • I once came across something similar in an EFL textbook. The students were asked to punctuate the following comment from a tutor:

    if the sentence that had had had had had had it would have been correct

    After reading that, some of them threatened to abandon their studies altogether!
  • Right up until you put the sentence in context, I would have agreed that 'this' was the better choice. However, now for some reason it feels a little awkward. For what its worth, I might have written:

    "...but they both knew that it wasn’t really true. "
  • Do you need 'that' with something they knew? I know they knew that, but couldn't it be: ' they both knew it wasn't true?

    Although, then again, the 'that' does emphasise what they knew wasn't true.

    I never know when that it needed and when to leave it out. If anyone else knows, perhaps they can tell me that.
  • [quote=bored_robots]James, while John had had "had", had had "had had"; "had had" had had a better effect on the teacher.

    The meaning could thus be rendered "It was the case that while John used 'had,' James used 'had had.' The teacher preferred 'had had.'"[/quote]

    Ching! The penny drops!
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