Welcome to Writers Talkback. If you are a new user, your account will have to be approved manually to prevent spam. Please bear with us in the meantime

Technically, not bad . . . Practically, shite.

I've noticed that there are a few people about who are able to discuss writing without taking it too personally. I've found an opening chapter from a book that I will never ever finish - I don't care about it.

In what I look for in the opening of a book, I feel that this chapter ticks many boxes. If anybody wants to play, I'll post it here, and we can look at how each of us approaches critique.

Post back if you want to play, and I'll post the chapter.
«1

Comments

  • Let's play! But why did you stop caring about your book if the first chapter ticks so many boxes?
  • [quote=girl friday]Let's play! But why did you stop caring about your book if the first chapter ticks so many boxes? [/quote]

    It's just not it . . .

    You'll see.
  • Judge Claire Bristol peered over the top of her glasses, a practised look designed to disparage. "What the hell is the imbecile going to object to now?" Her lips moved as she thought the thought. She wanted to adjourn for lunch and scratch her head beneath her wig. She’d been dying to scratch it all morning. As she eyed the barrister, she could see his lips flapping, but she couldn’t hear him. She tried to speak but no words would come. The female judge thought to reach for her gavel, but her body refused the instructions from her mind.

    She felt the ambient temperature drop, sharply, and she suddenly became aware that she could hear her own heart beating rapidly inside her ears. Was she having some sort of heart attack? She felt light, as if she was floating, being carried away. Was she dying? Was this death, or simply a psychotic episode, an unexplained out of body experience? Sounds, muted to virtual silence, as if she'd closed a window to the busy noise of the world. In her mind she was transported out of her seat of power, the place from where she had judged and condemned many. Was this it? Had a greater power had judged and condemned her.

    From her new vantage point, she observed herself, still presiding over her court. The digital clock displayed 11.41:21. She waited for it to change, move forward, it wouldn't.

    Standing in the aisle, the first security guard turned to pull his gun from its holster, too late. A bullet pierced the side of his neck before he'd even a chance to raise his weapon. His head toppled to one side, as if the neck were broken. The eyes first bulged then closed before he collapsed into a heap - dead.

    The remaining two security staff were caught flat-footed, with no time to react. The assailant had already crossed the courtroom. He leapt over the great wooden barrier in a single bound. His cold black revolver quickly found a position pressed against Claire's temple. The assailant stepped around behind her, wrapping his free arm around her shoulder, pulling her tight to him.
  • After her initial gasp she froze, too frightened to exhale. She smelled oil, burned gunpowder, all tainted with a mixture of sweat and fear.
    "Everybody down! Get down on the floor. Now!" he screamed at the court's complement.
    His volume, coupled with his proximity left her ear ringing.
    “And hands! I wanna see those fucking hands in the air!”
    In response, nobody moved. How did you get on the floor whilst raising your hands in the air? People seemed to just look at each other, not knowing quite what to do. Perhaps some dreamed of being hero but thought better of it. They could be a hero another day, today was their day off.

    Claire watched her body visibly shaking as her moistened eyes shifted toward the gun that she could not see. But she could see it. She could see herself, and a man was holding her at gunpoint. And she knew the fear she smelled was not his. She swallowed, licked her lips and prayed.
    “Outstanding.” The impeccably dressed defendant smiled in triumph, nonchalantly releasing himself from the dock and acknowledging his rescuer with a confident ‘thumbs-up’ gesture. He swaggered over to the male of the other two guards, a superior smirk on his face, gesturing to the other he should handover his firearm.
    "If you don't mind . . .." He relieved the guard of his gun. "Thank you, my dear friend." He twirled the gun twice around his index finger, placed the end of the barrel to the guard's forehead, smiled, and pulled the trigger.
    As the sound of the shot echoed to silence, blood, brain and skull fragments erupted from the exit wound.
  • A solo shriek from a woman in the gallery followed the gunshot. Multiple gasps, a combination of utterances, groans and mutterings eventually joined her lone voice.
    The defendant used his hand to wipe away some of his victim's blood that had splashed onto his face. He licked his fingers, then his lips, before arching a brow. "Silence!" he roared. His eyes surveyed the petrified jury members. He winked at the jury’s foreman and grinned. "That one was going to be trouble, I could tell. . . . Besides, he was a ginger. Really, he should have been dealt with at birth." He strode over to the female guard. "Now, my lovely little porker. . ." He reached around and removed the gun from her holster with his left hand whilst pressing his gun to the back of her head with his right. "Are you going to be a good girl for me, hmm?"
    A darker patch quickly grew around the crotch of her grey trousers.
    “Oh dear." He frowned. "You'll get no medals for bravery.” He struck her across the back of the head with her own gun. “Relax!”
    She fell.
    The prosecuting barrister caught her unconscious body before it hit the ground.
    The defendant turned. “Any heroes in here? I’ve plenty of bullets. I’ve only used the one. . . . Anybody? Anywhere?”
    The prosecuting barrister stood motionless, one arm tucked under each of the armpits of the female security guard, supporting her weight.
    “How about you? Are you a hero?” He aimed the gun at the barrister.
    “No, not me. I’ve got a wife . . . and . . . children.” The barrister shook his head, dropped the body, raised his arms, and backed away.
    “Married with children, eh? Does that make you special? Or should I put you out of their misery?” He aimed the pistol at the barrister’s forehead.
    The barrister closed his eyes.
    The defendant chuckled. “Wankers like you are not worth wasting a bullet on.” He chuckled. “Get on your knees . . . hands behind your head.” The defendant moved towards the kneeling barrister. “Oh dear, It looks like you’ve got a bit of a problem. I’ve just realised – this isn’t my gun . . . so these aren’t my bullets.”
    “Please . . .”
    “Shut up!” He aimed the gun at the barrister’s forehead. “How the mighty have fallen. Not ten minutes ago you were talking to me like I was a piece of shit . . . accusing me of all kinds things.” He mocked the barrister, imitating his voice. “I put it to you . . .“ He forced the gun against the snivelling barrister’s forehead. “Let me put his to you . . .”
    “Please . . .”
    “Come on, beg. Beg for your life. State your case . . . as it were. You know you want to.”
    The barrister grabbed the defendant’s trouser leg. “I don’t want to die, please.”
    “Come, come. You can do better than that. Five seconds, make your excuses or say your goodbyes.”
    The tearful barrister tried to speak but the only sounds he made were incoherent babble.
    “Five . . . four . . . three . . . two . . .”
  • As Claire turned her head to look away, a young man previously seated in the gallery burst into the aisle, theatrically rolling out from between the seats in a manner reminiscent of a Hollywood stunt man. Except for his movements, all time seemed to virtually stop. As if practised, or highly trained in combat, he appeared to take the revolver from the hand of the fallen guard in one quick, smooth movement. Two flashes in rapid succession emanated from the barrel. No bangs could be heard, for there was no sound.
    The first bullet struck. Judge Bristol witnessed the blood splash onto the right side of her own wig, followed by the assailant's involuntary release of his grip on her arm.
    The second bullet ripped into the assailant's chest, more blood splashed across the blotter before her. The gun slid away from her temple. Her captor fell to the floor. The back of his head smashed against the corner of the plinth. She could see in his staring eyes. He wouldn’t have felt any pain. He was already dead, long before he hit the floor.

    The young man remained perfectly still, down on one knee, both of his hands gripping the gun. Previously aimed slightly to the left of the judge, the gun was now trained on the armed defendant. The youth’s eyes focused, unblinking. His lips didn't move. There were no words spoken but he successfully communicated the information – move, and I'll kill you. The defendant was caught, one gun lowered, the other against the barrister’s forehead.
    “Knew it! There’s always a bloody hero.” The defendant turned away from the barrister and began slowly to walk towards the young man. “Well come on then, if you want to be a hero – shoot me.”
    The young man made no reply, his unblinking eyes remained fixed on the defendant.
    The defendant stopped walking. “Well, what are you going to do?”
    The young man made no reply.
    The defendant stared into the eyes of the young man. “I don’t fucking believe this. Come on then.”
    The young man’s gun remained trained. His eyes remained fixed.
    The defendant stared straight back, searching for a long moment. He blinked and when his eyes reopened they’d a different focus. They were looking beyond the young man to the main doors of the court. The doors were open a crack. Just above ground level the barrel of a rifle protruded 12 inches or so into the court. “Fuck.” He dropped both guns to his sides.

    Claire closed her eyes, relief, the moment was over. Eyes open, back in her own body, back in real time, she heard her heart beating in her ears. Audio service had been resumed the moment her captor's body had crumpled to the floor. The noise and confusion threatened to overwhelm her. Tears of joy had to be held back. She was a judge, an emotionless facade was to be maintained. She placed her hand to her heart, glad to feel it beating while she pondered the life and death moments that live between one heart-beat and the next.

    With next beat of her heart came another moment. The side door crashed open. Armed police stormed in.
    The defendant turned to investigate – too quickly.
    An armed police officer fired two shots into the defendant's torso before turning his weapon on the young man.

    Claire held her breath, another moment, another silence. The officer's finger feathered the trigger, an over-long second lingered. The finger twitched. She closed her eyes, and waited. The continued silence warranted she investigate again.

    The police officer’s tension eased. He relaxed. The adrenaline rush subsided. At some point the young man had moved, already he'd assumed a kneeling position, his hands clasped behind his head, his body trembling.
    "Lay down your weapon!" ordered the officer.
    "I can't," replied the young man through clenched teeth. "I can't fucking move."
    Another officer pushed his boot into the young man's back. "Lay flat on the floor, arms outstretched." The youth toppled forward. His face met hard floor of the aisle. The first officer stood on the outstretched wrist and prised the gun from the palm of a sweaty hand.

    The judge watched the clock with increasing satisfaction, 11.45:36 became 11.45:37, then 11.45:38. . . every additional second bringing another reassuring beat of her heart. At 11.45:45 she remembered to exhale. Then it came to her. She felt the tide coming, rushed from the court to the judge’s room, closed the door behind her, and slumped back against it. Relieved, she pulled off her wig and scratched her head. The wave broke – the tears came.
  • You're a braver man than me I had trouble reading past the first paragraph.
  • I would certainly put this book back on the library shelf though would prefer the rubbish bin.
    Excess use of the F*** word is childish and shows literary ignorance. Terrible dialogue. Far too many unnecessary adjectives. Boring, boring, boring.
    This writer has a lot to learn in my book. However, lets hope he/she keeps on trying anyway.
  • This was a very confusing and unexciting read. It's far too heavy on detail too, which kills any sense of panicky atmosphere and quick pace in the scene. If it had been a book I'd picked up, I wouldn't have got past the first few sentences, let alone the first paragraph. I also don't think that the scenario is realistic - how would it even be possible for all that to happen in a court room? Wouldn't there be thorough security checks before someone even got through the door of the building

    [quote=Michael Scott]In what I look for in the opening of a book, I feel that this chapter ticks many boxes.[/quote]

    Can you explain why you think this?
  • pbwpbw
    edited July 2011
    Which boxes does it tick?

    The author lost me at 'thought the thought', but I soldiered on because this is an interesting thread.

    At first read, I picked up on:

    Box 1 Show not tell (box not ticked)

    Box 2 Use dialogue tags sparingly, if at all (box not ticked)

    I'm going to read some more of it now, and see which other boxes are not ticked. I hope you're not going to tell us this is a work by a famous and best-selling author. If it is, there's hope for me yet.
  • I agree that there's far too much description and detail in this, especially for an opening chapter. Quite a few repetitions (scratched her head, wig..)
    I wouldn't be the slightest bit interested in reading on to the next chapter either. In fact, I think the next chapter might be more of the same.
    Some of it works if it was edited down a great deal. It could possibly be a piece of flash fiction - minus a lot of the dialogue and based more on the judges thoughts.

    I too am interested to know what you think are the aspects of a good opening to a book.
  • The chapter is almost catatonic inducing. The narrative is strewn with errors - the kind I might expect to find with first time writers when I critique.

    It is full with clich
  • edited July 2011
    Michael, just a friendly warning. I don't think 'Writing Tales' is a private thread on Talkback, so you need to be careful - you may be infringing someone's copyright by posting this here. (Unless this is your own work - your opening post is ambiguous about this!)
  • Yes, I wasn't sure if he meant he would never finish reading it or writing it.

    I found it too 'over egged'. I'm not experienced in providing critiques, so I'll leave the technicalities to those that are.
  • Keep them coming.
  • [quote=Red]‘as if’[/quote]
    Gosh I didn't know that. Is that phrase banned under every circumstance? Is it a rejection trigger?
  • edited July 2011
    I think that we could really do with being in sympathy with the judge's character more before the action happened. I've not connected to any of the characters enough to see their view point (i wasn't entirely sure who's view point i should be in). I think that almost each of the opening 3/4 paragraphs were very disjoineted (sp?) from each other. Other than i liked the idea of the judge having an itch under her wig that she just wanted to scratch, we didn't really learn of her personality. (i've only read the first of your postings michael so that i can respond as i read it - i am terrible at getting carried away then totally forgetting it! - a bit senile probably :-) ). I think that you could have the start of something but perhaps a bit of back ground and atmosphere first would make it stronger. Perhaps some description of the court room - the restless crowd or were they poised, breathlessly waiting some terrible revelation?

    Why would the temperature drop sharply? This needs some qualification. Are we talking about ghostly apparitions or did someone suddenly open the door. In which case would the temperature just drop or would there be a draft?

    I think there are lots of good ideas here, but some expansion is required to set the atmosphere. I think that the 'f' word used by the antagonist is realisitic in context, but it depends on your target audience for taste.

    Just my personal opinions, meant only in a constructive, helpful way.
  • PBW, i have used 'as if' as well..... hmmm perhaps time for a review!
  • [quote=Amanda]PBW, i have used 'as if' as well..... hmmm perhaps time for a review! [/quote]

    I shall run it through the 'Find' function and check my sentence structures. Another task to add to the 'Final Edit' list. The thing is, Red is an experienced writer/editor and she knows her onions, so it's worth taking note of her comments.

    I've got the 'f word' in my manuscript too, and one or two other bad ones, but I have a character who speaks like that. I can't change him. He's wilful. It's just life, I'm afraid.
  • [quote=paperbackwriter]Red wrote: ‘as if’

    Gosh I didn't know that. Is that phrase banned under every circumstance? Is it a rejection trigger? [/quote]

    This is found in children's writing. It's a constant with them until they learn basic grammar techniques. 'As though' is better. 'As if' and 'suddenly' and 'just as' are likley to make your prospective agent gag. Refrain from using too many, or none at all.
  • Though the thought was the first one for me, then the wig. Not only was it lame it made the character appear weak and wary. A simple line about scratching because she didn't care who noticed would have been more valuable than a page of character description.

    Then EVRYTHING Red said. I actually hadn't read that much but went back with Red's keen eye and cringed. Red I'm employing you to rip my book apart it I ever finish it. I'll probably end up with just one chapter but it'll be a good one.
  • thanks red, its nice to get some helpful advice.

    PBW, one of my characters swears rather more than i would like, i've tried writing him without those words but somehow his character is bland and not true to the story. The problem i have got now is that i wrote the story for adults but it is comming across as an easy read! I wonder if now, it should be older children/YA? I didn't have them in mind but my fantasy plot has just gone that way... not sure what to do now.
  • right on ST, i think red is getting quite a following!
  • [quote=SilentTony]Red I'm employing you to rip my book apart it I ever finish it. I'll probably end up with just one chapter but it'll be a good one. [/quote]

    Lol Nah, Tony, you're competent, capable writer.
  • [quote=SilentTony] Red I'm employing you to rip my book apart it I ever finish it.[/quote]

    Me too.
  • I think we need to be a bit more constructive here, folks, as this may well be Michael's own work. If it is, it's brave of him to post it and we need to criticise it in a way which is encouraging, not discouraging!

    Personally, although it was an exciting scene in terms of action, I would have liked more character. As a reader it was hard to invest my emotion in the scene because I didn't know much about the people involved. I liked the idea of time slowing down and senses being affected, but I think to carry this concept through the writer needs to stay in Claire's head and see all the events from her point of view. I think the prose could be pared down - as someone else pointed out, 'the female judge' and such like is unnecessary: 'she' is just as good if not better. With a scene like this you need dynamic prose that really captures the tension.
  • Repetition: thought - thought, scratch, scratch. 'The female judge' - unnecessary. Para 2 missing a ? at the end. Total lack of punctuation that might just have given a bit more suspense: 'to charge, move forward, it wouldn't' - just lazy, really.
    And 'collapsed into a heap - dead' - it's almost comic.
    Some books simply shouldn't make it out of the starting blocks. This one should be taken away and gutted. There is a story there, but this isn't how to tell it. Less is more: less directing the reader to what the writer wants to say, and more allowing the reader to see what's happening. Think of it as the difference between painting by numbers, and a deft sketch.
  • [quote=Amanda] but it is comming across as an easy read![/quote]

    During my day at Winchester Writers' Conference, I went to one seminar entitled 'How to write gripping fiction'. The key word is 'ambiguity'.

    If you can work out how to write in a way which presents clues to the reader, and prompt the reader to work out for him/herself what the sub text is, you can pull it back up to an adult read. It's like 'showing not telling', but it also conveys other layers of interaction. Here's a simple example. I've just (sorry) written:


    ‘When were you supposed to have another check up?’
    ‘You know, Lance, that’s a good question. You can understand my reluctance to go back in there after my last experience.’
    She blew noisily into a tissue.
    ‘Ah, yes. Sorry.’


    This is a small snippet, but in essence, he shouldn't have asked that question at that moment and he's upset her, and it becomes clear he has a hidden agenda.
    Before this chapter, something awful had happened, but he is asking the question for another reason, for something else he's pursuing.

    I'm aiming to create ambiguity between these two. She finds him hard to read and his words are not always consistent with his actions, so she doesn't know how to read him, but I don't say that in words. I set up cameos so that the reader finds it hard to decide his motives, too.

    In addition to the ambiguity, you create space for the reader to infer and extrapolate in their own way, so they can use their imagination and deductive powers to work out what's going on.

    I'm not yet familiar with this technique but I'll let you know how I progress with it. It might help you take your fiction back up to a more subtle read. Try it with a chapter and see how it works.

    I may have to change 'noisily', perhaps rewrite it to 'She snorted into a tissue.' but I don't like that quite as much. 'Snorted' is not precise enough for the image I want to convey, but the 'adverb debate' is a separate post.
  • I must say that I find Red's comments the most amusing. She? accuses the writer of using cliches and subsequently applies every cliche of critique to the work. Having discussed the 'rules' with Silent Tony on another thread, most 'rules' quoted belong in non-fiction (journalism) when applied to a work of fiction they kill it.

    Journalism = Succinctly impart accurate, authentic information to the reader.

    Fiction Writing = Encode information generated by one imagination to be transferred and decoded in the mind of another. [quote=Red]we know it’s a female judge because you’ve given us her name, therefore we don’t need to be told she’s a female again. [/quote]

    - Interesting. Why would the writer reiterate that point.

    [quote=Red]There are too many uses of the awful ‘as if’.[/quote]

    Another cliche: Parts of the text are from the POV of a woman suffering the effects of an ectopic pregnancy - she thinks she's dying. Her POV is unreliable and very subjective.
    [quote=Red] too much description makes it plod[/quote]

    - Again, we spend time in the POV of a character for whom 'All time has slowed'.

    [quote=Red]‘His eyes surveyed the petrified jury…’ It’s always better as, ‘He surveyed the…’[/quote]

    - This is another fallacy. In generating an image for your reader. Where do you want the [camera] focus? If you want a close-up of the character surveying the jurors write 'his eyes surveyed'. If you want a wider shot or a pan of the character surveying the jury then you'd write 'he surveyed'.

    [quote=Red]and this piece seems to have made one of the greatest blunders in plotting: creating an unrealistic scenario to begin with, which makes me believe there is a fundamental lack of research in the whole piece.[/quote]

    - And this is the greatest fallacy of all - straight out of journalism. Readers of fiction have no interest in facts. They are interested in the writer spinning them a good yarn (see suspension of disbelief).

    Can a border collie find its way home from half way across United States? - probably not.
    Can a pig not only talk, but win a sheepdog contest? - probably not?
    During Al Capone's trial, believing the jury has be bought, can the judge switch the jury prior to the verdict? - definitely not. (The second jury would be unable to return a verdict because they haven't heard the evidence).
    And why the hell would you want to hold James Bond at gunpoint, whilst tying him to a conveyor belt leading to a circular saw, whilst detailing the exact details of your plans for world domination? Surely just shoot him with the gun and get on with it, no?

    In summary: characters and plots are required to be interesting, rather than authentic.
  • [quote=Lou Treleaven]I think we need to be a bit more constructive here, folks, as this may well be Michael's own work. If it is, it's brave of him to post it and we need to criticise it in a way which is encouraging, not discouraging![/quote]

    Nah, get on with it. Nothing here is personal. Get on with it. We need to get right down to bowels of writing and expose what sells, and why it sells. On sites such as this Miranda Dickinson and Amanda Hocking will get ripped to pieces by the 'good critters' but the former manage to sell hundreds of thousands of copies . . . and the good critters don't.

    Why?
  • I like that you have a passion for this Michael, even if I disagree with a lot of what you say. It is refreshing to see somebody question the process so harshly. I feel at times you ask questions with an answer already cemented in your mind. This is a worthless pursuit. However if you are asking question with a critical edge to find out if there are cracks then I understand that process. Sometimes we need to appear definite to have true access to the answers we require.


    [quote=Michael Scott]In summary: characters and plots are required to be interesting, rather than authentic.[/quote]

    Again I can't do anything but agree with you 100% on that point. However I think you may be misunderstanding the point. For a character to be interesting they HAVE to be authentic. Otherwise we are in the territory of cardboard cut outs and two dimensional characters. That's not to suggest they should be identikit replications of real people either. Fiction isn't writing about real life, it's about writing about real life inflated. So we need them to be bigger than life while appearing to be authentic. It's a sleight of hand trick that is difficult to pull off but with practice and talent it can be done. All fiction is a deceit, but those lies had better be true lies or you'll be in trouble.
  • An awful lot of it is down to Lady Luck. My ex was always telling me, 'It's not what you know, it's who you know,' and it's true. It's really, really hard to get a lucky break. I should know: my head is covered with bruises and brick dust.
  • edited July 2011
    WHY ? The same reason that the 'News of The World' sold copies.

    Remember the minister in 'Yes, Minister' ? He went through every papers readership and the types of readers and when asked who read 'The Sun' was told
    "The people who read 'The Sun' don't care who runs the country just as long as they have big tits" which sums up much of the population.
  • pbwpbw
    edited July 2011
    [quote=Michael Scott]On sites such as this Miranda Dickinson and Amanda Hocking will get ripped to pieces by the 'good critters' but the former manage to sell hundreds of thousands of copies . . . and the good critters don't.[/quote]

    I hope I'm right in saying we don't set out to tear each other to pieces. As committed writers (in whatever field, whatever status) we all understand how incredibly hard it is to do it, so I think everything is meant constructively.

    There's little enough quality help out there (unless you pay for it , and even then quality feedback is not guaranteed) and you're right, the advice on this site is invaluable.

    A lot of it is down to taste, too. One man's Amanda Hocking is another man's slush pile, so to speak.

    And what about Dan Brown? Look at the criticism he gets, and he's laughing all the way to the bank, but he had contacts, you see. That's how he got his first break, and he does write cracking good thrillers, even if his heroines wear cashmere twin sets and dreadful 'A' line plaid skirts.
  • [quote=SilentTony]I like that you have a passion for this Michael, even if I disagree with a lot of what you say. It is refreshing to see somebody question the process so harshly. I feel at times you ask questions with an answer already cemented in your mind. This is a worthless pursuit. However if you are asking question with a critical edge to find out if there are cracks then I understand that process. Sometimes we need to appear definite to have true access to the answers we require.
    [/quote]

    I don't have passion. I just like rule 51a!

    Seriously, the best advice that I've ever received. I never hear on these sites. I believe that it is because most writers are too far down the path they have taken to turn back.

    Here's a simple test given to me.

    1) Read a newspaper article. You'll read it and assimilate the information. 2) Read a book for pleasure. You'll hear the author talking, then you'll start seeing the story, and then you'll be inside. SEE: HERE: LIVE

    After conducting the test, I saw the light. [For me] it rendered most critique worthless (including my own). If I read your opening chapter with a view to critique I'm reading words and text - I cannot see the things that YOUR reader can see from the inside. After getting a group of beta readers who did not write, and had nothing to with writing, I learned a whole new attitude.

    - I have to go to work.
  • There is one piece where the young man drops both his guns on the floor.
    Then after the defendant is shot by the guard, the young man is asked again to drop his weapon, no mention of him grabbing another weapon. Takes a bit of following.
  • I think you'll find we've all said those things lol.

    Yes we can get too close to our own discipline. However we can also step back. I read for pleasure and the only time I find myself watching the cogs is when the writer has lost me. It's an occupational hazard that we'll notice the mechanics of books but we have to discipline ourselves to step back. It's the same with music. When I was younger and in a band we each took our tapes home to listen back to our performance or rehearsals. We did this to find out where we made mistakes or if we could improve. While looking so closely for new ideas with your part you often singled it out and separated the other instruments. Of course a band is a band for a reason. It is the sum of its parts that make sit what it is.

    Once I figured this out I heard the music more clearly and not only knew where every instrument was at any point I could also see the song as a separate beast too. I try to do this with reading and writing now. No reason why you or anybody else can't do that. Non writing beta readers are good idea but so are writers. Where the none writer will give you an overall assessment based on the emotional experience the writer can pin point areas for improvement.

    You may have had this dilemma where a reader tells you they love a story and will give you great feedback on the characters, writing etc. Then if you ask about improvement they may give you a vague answer like, "It needed something else at point A." or " I loved character B but think she needed something different about her." These are real readers eyes. They know something is missing and sometimes will tell you what, often they will be unclear and that is no use. An experienced writer may tell you where they think Point A should have gone and give you suggestions or at leasts highlight the precise problem.

    I feel you are being too insular in your approach and thinking. You claim there are no rules and no real instruction then limit yourself in lots of ways. You want to dissect your own work and never look at the deconstruction of other writers. You only want to ask none writers to critique your books and not ask experienced writers for their opinion. Why are you blockading things that may actually help you? No answer is the right answer so spread the net wide and see what you catch.
  • [quote=Michael Scott]I believe that it is because most writers are too far down the path they have taken to turn back.
    [/quote]

    This is very well observed and it is a REAL problem. Some of us - and we're not the only ones, have forfeited other employment opportunities to pursue our writing projects. That means the investment turns into real money, and when you are a year or more down the line, it's very hard to throw that money away by giving up.
  • The worst part of an "Online" or "text" based critique is the lack of voice behind it. I have yet to meet a writer that isn't defensive about their work and wants to justify it, in many cases before it's read.
    If you surender your soul to a group of people in person, you get a voice, a tone that implies empathy, sentiment. I 'hear' a defensive attitude in some people's posts on here. Thats not a bad thing, it's human nature. But if you know you are doing it, you can adjust your approach - and amend your reply likewise.

    Let's face it, our writing is infact a little sliver of our spirit, we pour our souls into typing/penning thousands of words. The bit that we are so proud of, is in truth damn useless and doesn't add to anything. We have every right to defend it.
    Having just allowed an entire year group to review and critique my first chapter it has been a hugely rewarding and cheering experience. But you do have to paint a target on your chest and be willing to be hit.

    Like any profession, those that break through in to the published world seem to carefully select their howto advice to be helpfully cryptic. Cliches appear regularly eg. Write what you know. So how does someone write a character they know nothing about. It's more than research.
    Write what you read. That is perhaps the best one. You know the formats, you understand the expectations of the reader/genre fan.
    So Micheal, I do not have any words of wisdom as such. I understood what you were attempting to do but as I do not read that genre, my advice would perhaps confuse the issue.
  • The best thing to do, in my opinion, is to read what you have written out loud. The clumsy things become obvious; the punctuation also, where it needs to be sharpened up.
    When one brings creativity down to the level of the mechanics of writing, it loses spontaneity. But writing spontaneously is not necessarily synonymous with writing well.
    What it comes down to, then, is editing, editing, editing. And if it still doesn't read right, take the part away and start it again.
  • Thankyou S.T Im glad I amused you.
    I have read all the coments.I just prefer to relay a more compact version.
  • [quote=Red] 'As if' and 'suddenly' and 'just as' are likley to make your prospective agent gag.[/quote]

    Hi Red,

    as soon as ‘suddenly’ made its obligatory appearance, I switched off.
  • edited July 2011
    I think 'suddenly', 'just as' and 'as if' are fine - in moderation. Problems arise when these words and phrases are overused.

    Similarly with 'show and tell'. Much good writing includes a mixture of the two. It's deciding when to use which one that can sometimes be difficult.

    Stephen King ("On Writing" ) has a lot to answer for. OK, he's a good writer and I like some of his books, but he has his own particular writing style. Others may choose to use more adverbs than he does - it doesn't necessarily make them bad writers. Of course, there is such a thing as overuse, but there is also room for a variety of different styles. If we all wrote in the style recommended by King, literature would be dull.

    (Hops off hobby horse...)
  • [quote=francis]Thankyou S.T Im glad I amused you.[/quote]

    Francis I wondered what you meant so scrolled up. You had obviously posted while I was writing as that comment was meant for MS about the things he said we never mention on here. Sorry if there was a confusion.


    Roasalie you may have a point there about the influence of On Writing. Also the point gives us some clearer understanding of the confusion here. These books are often referred to as 'how-to' books or writing manuals. Really they are called guides though and that's how we should treat them. We should dip into them and think about the questions they ask and draw our own conclusions, not use them as explicit instructions on the mechanics of our own work. They are to be used to make us think for ourselves, not tell us how to think.
  • [quote=SilentTony]You may have had this dilemma where a reader tells you they love a story and will give you great feedback on the characters, writing etc. Then if you ask about improvement they may give you a vague answer like, "It needed something else at point A." or " I loved character B but think she needed something different about her." These are real readers eyes. They know something is missing and sometimes will tell you what, often they will be unclear and that is no use. An experienced writer may tell you where they think Point A should have gone and give you suggestions or at leasts highlight the precise problem.[/quote]

    SilentTony, I will try to answer you post as best I can.

    "Books are to be read, stories are to be experienced." - This is the difference between reader and writer.

    After sending a novel out to a group of 16 girls I asked them some random questions to see if they'd read it. One of the test questions was "What colour is Adele's car?" Three out of the five girls were adamant that the car was yellow. (not a common colour).
    - The colour of Adele's car is never mentioned.

    However, when I wrote the scene in which she drives, I imagined her car to be yellow. I've examined the text several times in order to discover how that information was transmitted - I can't find it, but it *must* be there. I've since tested the theory on other work. Two of the five believe that 'Carol Fox' was leaning against her desk when she spoke about her regrets (that's the way I saw it, but I never said so).

    The benefit of examining you own work is that the only person on the planet who knows the entirety of what happened is the writer. And ultimately you need to know how much information you transmitted and how much was received.

    - And as for all the clich
  • And if you are not in the UK download Expat Shield and you can still watch it..xx
  • Michael, you invited critique. I gave it my approach, yet you seen keen on mocking those who are giving you feedback.

    [quote=Michael Scott]I must say that I find Red's comments the most amusing. She? accuses the writer of using cliches and subsequently applies every cliche of critique to the work.

    I’m amusing if nothing else. Thing is, you're picking fault with the feedback. I've accused no one, so please refrain accusatory terms. I merely listed the flaws within the piece. If you wish to call them cliché, that’s entirely up to you, no bother for me. It's to help in a constructive manner.

    [quote=Michael Scott]Having discussed the 'rules' with Silent Tony on another thread, most 'rules' quoted belong in non-fiction (journalism) when applied to a work of fiction they kill it.[/quote]

    Most ‘rules’ that you talk of are there for a reason. Should we assume a writer could churn out stuff without them? Writing, as we all know, is subjective, we do as we please to a certain degree, but rules also provide a skeletal pathway from which to work. A writer can choose to follow, or they can ignore.

    The ‘rules’ don't kill fiction; if anything they help a writer produce better fiction. A writer can ignore them and do their own thing. If you take those rules from the equation, you’ll have a lot of telling & no showing, adverbs all over the place, paragraphs strewn with double or triple adjectives, bad syntax, badly constructed dialogue & sentences, badly placed clauses & commas, clichés galore, hardly any balance between the description, narrative and dialogue, a range of cardboard characters who themselves could be a cliché, and a plot that could have dribbled from someone backside.

    [quote=Michael Scott]Red wrote: There are too many uses of the awful ‘as if’.
    Another cliche: Parts of the text are from the POV of a woman suffering the effects of an ectopic pregnancy - she thinks she's dying.
    Red wrote: too much description makes it plod [/quote]

    ‘As if’ is a cliché. Kids use it all the time. And there lies the problem. The woman’s POV does not work here; it isn’t strong enough to sustain her. The whole thing plods, not just because of her POV, but because the pacing is terrible, the framework has no meat. That’s why I said it plodded, and perhaps why others said they were bored - the rest of the narrative had slowed, too.

    [quote=Michael Scott]Red wrote: ‘His eyes surveyed the petrified jury…’ It’s always better as, ‘He surveyed the…’
    - This is another fallacy. In generating an image for your reader. Where do you want the [camera] focus? If you want a close-up of the character surveying the jurors write 'his eyes surveyed'. If you want a wider shot or a pan of the character surveying the jury then you'd write 'he surveyed'. [/quote]

    Forgive me Michael, but I thought this piece was fiction? Unless specifically writing a screenplay, fiction shouldn’t mould itself to play entirely like a movie. That’s not to say you can’t envision scenes that would play in the mind like a movie, but fiction works on a different level. The writer must make the reader focus on deeper elements of the story and characters as a silent participant, not as a camera. How can writing better fiction be a fallacy?

    [quote=Michael Scott]Red wrote: and this piece seems to have made one of the greatest blunders in plotting: creating an unrealistic scenario to begin with, which makes me believe there is a fundamental lack of research in the whole piece.
    - And this is the greatest fallacy of all - straight out of journalism. Readers of fiction have no interest in facts. They are interested in the writer spinning them a good yarn (see suspension of disbelief). [/quote]

    Why is this straight out of journalism? This is fiction, not journalism. Readers must have facts. If I write about someone going through a legal process – i.e. extradition - I need to make sure my facts are correct, otherwise I could churn out any old rubbish with complete disregard to my readers or the facts. If writers fall back on this kind of lazy attitude, then there is no place in the fiction writing for them. We must have facts in the basis of what we write, otherwise there is little point.

    [quote=Michael Scott]In summary: characters and plots are required to be interesting, rather than authentic. [/quote]

    Characters and plots must be interesting, yes, and believable and also sustainable. They must also be realistic within the realms of the plot and theme (unless writing sci-fi/fantasy), otherwise you'r in danger of writing utter tripe. Fiction without authentic characters is like reading a child’s story.

    "A writer should create living people; people, not characters. A character is a caricature." Ernest Hemingway.

    Indeed.

    No writer is perfect – there is no such thing. But good writers can help lesser writers become better writers.
  • [quote=Red]Unless specifically writing a screenplay, fiction shouldn’t mould itself to play entirely like a movie.[/quote]
    Precisely.

    I haven't read Stephen King's "On writing".
    Should I ? (or shouldn't I ? )
  • pbwpbw
    edited July 2011
    It's a good book and it has a lot of insights, but it's not the best on the technical stuff.

    However, for inspiration, and what it means to write from the heart, and his own insights into his writing, it's good.

    It may not advance your own writing much, but with luck you'll enjoy it and it will inspire you.

    It's a quick read, you know. You can knock it off in a day or two.
  • I've never read it (so far) but i am a great believer in exploring other povs'. I can only aspire to make my purile drivel more acceptable to the great devouring public so any little tips (or rules if you like) just to nudge it along a little is just fine with me!
Sign In or Register to comment.