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Comparative and Superlative
I was watching the Hairy Bikers, who were cooking something to compete against a dish cooked by a Cornish chef. One of the Hairies told us that "it will be down to the locals to decide whose dish is best". Surely, if only two dishes are involved then the comparative 'better' should have been used.
I know this is quite a common misuse, for example "May the best man win" being said at a boxing match, but to me it is yet another example (alongside 10 items or less) of a decline in standards where incorrect usage is becoming accepted as the norm.
Long, longer, longest, for example.
If you are comparing one against another - comparative longer.
If more than two are involved, superlative longest.
It is a very easy rule to remember, so getting it wrong comes across as sloppy or lazy, but the BBC certainly aren't too put out by its misuse these days.
Rant over ;-)
I know this is quite a common misuse, for example "May the best man win" being said at a boxing match, but to me it is yet another example (alongside 10 items or less) of a decline in standards where incorrect usage is becoming accepted as the norm.
Long, longer, longest, for example.
If you are comparing one against another - comparative longer.
If more than two are involved, superlative longest.
It is a very easy rule to remember, so getting it wrong comes across as sloppy or lazy, but the BBC certainly aren't too put out by its misuse these days.
Rant over ;-)
Comments
I do like these little snippets.
BBC is singular, your aren't should be isn't :).
BBC is singular, your aren't should be isn't[/quote]
I disagree.
Although I referred to 'the BBC', it is clear that the reference was towards individuals within the organisation and not the organisation itself, as in the similar example.
Manchester United is a big club.
Manchester United are playing well.
And I'm in good company...
The BBC are helping destroy commercial radio by putting Chris Evans and Chris Moyles head-to-head (headline, Daily Mirror)
The BBC are lucky to take over Formula One coverage when the sport is brilliantly open (headline, Daily Telegraph)
"The BBC are asking for big cuts in programme budgets but because the commercial broadcasters are in such trouble they seem to be the only beast in the jungle of any significant size," (Comedy writer, Jimmy Mulville)
Whereas the organisation itself gets
Meanwhile, the BBC is under siege. (Guardian)
I disagree with that point. Did you see the match on Saturday?
I saw the highlights but speaking as a Newcastle fan the quality was still a lot better than I am used to ;-)
Katie Derham '....The thorn of Europe cast a shadow over Conservative Conference...'
:-) I don't think so. Mixed images.
And we all know that so many areas are dumbed down now. Would the viewer neccesarily know or understand the difference. (Not that I'm saying it's okay to use the words incorrectly.)
The difference here is that we have people who are being paid rather well specifically for their ability to communicate the English language to an audience. I would expect, therefore, that their standards would be at least at a level where they can diferentiate between 'fewer' and 'less', and know superlatives from comparatives. I remember answering (correctly) a comparative/superlative question in my eleven plus exam. There are some aspects of our language that are quite difficult to get to grips with, I know, but learning how to use English basics, such as the two examples above, is hardly algebra.
After all, if I submitted an article with the following...
So, having visited both Scarborough and Skegness, I would definitely say that Scarborough is best, although this may be partly due to there being less tourists here.
Any editor worth their wages would toss it straight into the bin.
innit ;-)
Burnley, Stoke and Everton, the latter being our opponents next weekend.
It should be
Burnley, Stoke and Everton, the last being our opponents next weekend.
the second of two = latter
the final of more than two = last
Leave yer polished apples on me desk ;-)
What do you think?
I agree with that. My YA series is first person, and though all of my main character's narrative, indirect thoughts and observations are generally written in proper english, all of her direct thoughts and speech, and the dialogue of the other characters, are written as they would be spoken in real life. Not that I've put in loads of local dialect to make it sound more realistic -- I haven't put in any -- but I don't think it would work to have a sixteen-year-old girl in modern-day Stirling speaking (and thinking) in immaculate Queen's English.
I think in articles and non-fiction, everything should be grammatically correct, but in fiction there should be a bit of wiggle room.
*SA*
The BBC on the other hand, broadcasts (BBC organisation = singular) across the board so those in charge of personnel should surely employ reporters who at least have a basic knowledge of the rules of English. I don't want to come across as a pedant because I'm not, but surely it is right that a national broadcasting corporation should have stricter rules for acceptance than my local newspaper.
And if you think I'm bad - tune into radio 4 when a reporter splits an infinitive - it's a warzone :-)
I mean, do you use it in everyday language? Would you ask: "Whom did you see when you got there?"
I think language development has more or less agreed on this shift to 'who'.
'The man scratched he head in puzzlement'
'Whom' is not just an archaic form of 'who', it does have a purpose.
In a rather complicated nutshell lifted from the Internet...
"Who" is a Subject Pronoun
"Who" is a subject pronoun like "he," "she" and "we" in the examples above. We use "who" to ask which person does an action or which person is a certain way.
Examples:
* Who made the birthday cake?
* Who is in the kitchen?
* Who is going to do the dishes?
"Whom" is an Object Pronoun
"Whom" is an object pronoun like "him," "her" and "us." We use "whom" to ask which person receives an action.
Examples:
* Whom are you going to invite?
* Whom did he blame for the accident?
* Whom did he hire to do the job?
* Who are you going to invite?
* Who did he blame for the accident?
* Who did he hire to do the job?'
Whom' is actually an INDIRECT object pronoun, and is the Dative case, not Accusative and should be used for sentences such as
To whom did you give the ball? (usually said as 'who did you give the ball to?'. which has two grammatical errors - finishing a sentence with a preposition [to] and incorrect use of 'who', when it should be whom)
You got that car from whom? (said as who did you get the car from - same errors as above)
The one that really gets my goat is the replacing of 'as' with 'like' - flippin' americanisms!
(and all my examples have flown away - that's teh trouble with and old brain ;) )
I never said that I use 'whom'. In general, I don't. I've just checked, and I didn't use it at all in book #1, and in book #2, used it only twice - both times in dialogue, and both times spoken by the same character (an adult, a real baddie who speaks in perfectly anunciated, Jimmy Carr-esque English. It fits with his character). As I said, my main character is a sixteen-year-old girl from Stirling. I can't imagine her ever saying or thinking (either directly or indirectly) the word 'whom'. There's nothing wrong with that word, it just hasn't got a place in the main body of my story, because how often does a teenage girl actually use the word 'whom' these days? :)
[quote=Lolli]The one that really gets my goat is the replacing of 'as' with 'like' - flippin' americanisms!
[/quote]
I have only used the 'like' you mean in dialogue. I had to change loads of 'like' to 'as though' or 'as if' in the last draft of book #1, and I've learned my lesson. But there's something about the way 'like' flows in dialogue that 'as though' lacks, so I've kept it in there for the few times I've used it. ;)
*SA*
Also, sorry but you do come across as a little pedantic C-O-S :)
The Hairy Bikers are paid to communicate in their own inimitable style, in order to make cooking accessible to a particular audience. To split hairs over the quality of language used is, in my opinion, totally missing the point.
As for the 'whom' debate -I found this interesting
http://assistantvillageidiot.blogspot.com/2009/02/whom.html
And as for archaic words - I would NEVER use 'whilst' -it's 'while' every time.
Is it, "...that begs the question of whom is leading who?" or "...that begs the question of who is leading whom?"
Help. Please? :D
who = subject of is leading, and
whom = object of is leading.
Don't think you need the 'of'.
You'd say: She is leading him; not her is leading he. It's the same theory.
Do I write, "So my dear, that begs the question who is leading whom?" or "So my dear, that begs the question of who is leading who?" I sort of thought there'd have to be a 'whom' in there somewhere. Aaaaaagh! Perhaps I should just change the sentence - it'd be a heck of a lot easier. But I kind of wanted it left in there because it's relevant to their relationship. I do appreciate your help, though. Thank you,again.
He sounds pretty formal, in which case I would use Jay's version, which is correct, but, as he says, maybe not how most people speak these days.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=yq&ei=na_eSsWqIZiRjAeFz8mkBg&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CAkQBSgA&q=who%27s+leading+who/whom&spell=1
Just to bring this whole thing back into realistic terms, I must say that 'I' do actually use whom when speaking. {Ducks head and waits for barrage} Am I old fashioned? Probably, yes. A wee bit. But then, my family do actually have a go at me for it so I don't get off scott free because they make me feel rather pompous at times. Can't help it - it's just the way I am.
I'd always assumed my 'man' (heroic character) was well educated and would speak properly.
I do sometimes use 'whom' in my writing, depending on the character/background. A middle to upperclass persona would use 'whom'.