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MSt in Creative Writing from Oxford Uni Dept of Continuing Education
On my website and in my Directory there are a large number of courses and tutors - too many to list here. I'd like to mention this one in particular because these nice people phoned me instead of emailing me. The world of my email inbox is like having to live inside the proverbial haystack constantly looking for the dratted needle (because there are so many emails i.e. bits of hay). Whereas a phone call is much better from my point of view. Details at www.conted.ox.ac.uk/W800-27
Comments
I can't even begin to describe what my MA has given me - not just in excellent tutoring and making my writing (already published writing) way better, but in contacts, fun, experience...
I was a writer before, but afterwards I had confidence and knowledge which has proved invaluable. not to mention a writing group to die for.
If you have the money, go for it is what I say. 4 out of the 8 in my group are now published and published in a BIG way.
There must be tons of writers out there published anyway, without having handed their hard-earned to someone in return for tuition.
As for writing retreats, surely the best thing to do is book yourself a weekend away somewhere and just, erm, write?
Why would you need to pay out sums of money to someone else in order to find space, time and inclination to write?
If you don't have naturally have the urge to do write, then, well, I simply don't get it.
There must be tons of writers out there published anyway, without having handed their hard-earned to someone in return for tuition.[/quote]
Well, that's a moot point. They were all excellent writers - but many had sent off stuff over and over to be told it wasn't quite good enough. Three of them now have the manuscript written on the course, and then others after, published. So I'd say, yeah, hundreds get published anyway - but how many more are there almost there but not really sure where they are going wrong? The competition is great out there.
But not only that - i was published over and over, happily, and would have been forever more I expect. but now my writing is SO much better. I know perfectly well that it would not have improved that much without the exacting standards exerted upon me by the tutors.
The other thing is, it gave me the freedom and permission and support to try other genres. Very few of us experiment. We stick to what we know. Some because that's all they want to do. But I wanted to try other genres and see if I could do it.
Creative writing courses aren't there to give you time to write, they are there to improve your writing. We all need to improve, I hope I never stop improving, but I can tell you unequivocally that normal creative writing courses at evening classes, although good, excellent in fact, will never give you what a full time course will.
One thing that i would recommend above all is writing an exercise and having it marked by your peers, Seeing exactly how your words have affected another person, 7 others, is the very best way to learn. you aren't writing for yourself, you are writing for an audience and you need that feedback to understand how your words work.
I very often do, thanks, and haven't paid out thousands of pounds to do so, as I have writer friends all around the UK all at differing levels of writing experience.
what's that then, an empty purse?
:) I'm only jesting, Liz, as I"m sure these courses have their place in some people's lives, just as several thousand pounds a term fee paying schools have their place in others.
Okay - you can argue that anyone literate can 'write' - but that's like saying that anyone who can put a paintbrush on a canvas can 'paint'.
The whole point of any writing course is to help the writer hone their skills, discover their weaknesses, learn how to correct those weaknesses, practice, practice, practice and learn to write to a professional standard.
An artist, a musician, a dancer, an actor - these people may all have natural talent and skill - but why do you think they train under professional tuition/school/academies?
Why does anyone think all writers can do it without help? (The word ALL is deliberate - there are always exceptions.) :)
I'm sure it is, Claudia, and I'd be pretty cross if I'd paid thousands of pounds and not been helped to find my weaknesses, or told to practice and learned how to write to a professional standard.
Thing is though, you can do all those things without paying loadsamuni if you are motivated enough to find out things for yourself, map out your own learning aims and objectives, and be prepared to put in tons of time and effort.
Not everyone needs spoonfeeding.
Jesting or not, what someone who hasn't been on a course like this doesn't have is comparison.
i went on the MA as my mum had just died, I had enough money for the first time, and two friends suggested it to me. I applied very late for the course with a week to go before term started and got in within a week after being interviewed. I probably would have thought all the things you do if i hadn't been sort of tipped into it, for various reasons, dora.
Before this, I had writing friends, all at differing levels of experience (from well published to aspiring to just starting). I had been on various writing courses, from local college to community writing workshops up to Bath University evening classes. Some paid for, some not.
I can tell you from my experience and that of my fellow students at Bath Spa - no comparison. Like comparing Toddler Group to an A level course.
Comparing a paid post degree level course to a paid school is just not the same. Schools are aiming for the same level. You can pay for better facilities and better surroundings and 'supposedly' better teachers and certainly different teaching methods, but both Comprehensive and private schools are striving for the same level of education, with differing ability of students and differing levels of interest from the students. Sadly, that makes an enormous difference to the ability of the teachers to teach effectively.
I'm not saying it's the only way, cos there are a huge number of writers out there who have never been on a course, but I am saying now I know what it can be like I would save every penny i have for 10 years to go on one, if i hadn't been. It was truly the best year of my life, and that includes this year, having got my book to a publisher and almost published, without a doubt, i preferred learning how to do it!
Nor am I saying I am a brilliant writer. I am a better writer than i would have been until the end of my days in just one year, that's what. And I learned how bad I was... and how to critique myself, and how to strive for excellence, and know what excellence is.
Liz, it was right for you, and that's okay.
I'm not against learning itself, I've been through a lifetime of it, spent every hour after working a day full of work, at college and then uni, I do know what is involved at degree level.
Even though I'm with the view there is no need to spend so much, I don't see any problem with anyone if they want to indulge themselves in a particular course for whatever reason.
I just don't see it as a necessity.
A lot of people will say the greatest part of a writing degree is the contacts you make. Especially at a place like Bath Spa as Liz mentions. So I don't agree that you need to go on any course to learn to write. I do think you do need to learn to write to become a writer though. The problem is when you do it alone it could take a lot longer but with fewer prejudices. But then again won't you also find those in the writers you read?
[quote=Liz!]both Comprehensive and private schools are striving for the same level of education, with differing ability of students and differing levels of interest from the students. Sadly, that makes an enormous difference to the ability of the teachers to teach effectively.[/quote]
I'm not clear of the point you are trying to make here Liz. Are you saying that it doesn't matter what facility it is you learn from or that it does?
I'm saying that a post degree course has only people at very high level and the higher the level of the people in your group the better your writing will get - you write for those around you and strive to beat them. If your rivals are strolling you don't bust a gut trying to get to the finishing line, you use just enough energy to trounce them, it's not as much fun and you don't get a thrill.
Not sure what you mean. Just reading does make you a better writer but it doesn't really tell you what you yourself are doing wrong - you can certainly emulate excellence, but you become blind to your own faults! And not everyone can see how a writer is getting an effect.
I'd say a good course doesn't instil prejudice or influence you to become anything other than what you are already, but better.
I think very intelligent people will be able to judge their own work and see the progress and faults. Of course it could take longer to see patterns than if we had guidance. I would suggest that a good creative writing course on any level is always going to be beneficial. I'd also suggest up until degree level it could be a huge step in your development as a writer if not also your career. After that it's up to what the writer wants and the values of the tutor.
I agree about surrounding yourself with the best to be the best. I used to be in some poor bands with pretty poor musicians. I was also just an okay musician. I then got asked to join a good band full of some of the best players in the city. We rehearsed every day, played good gigs, recorded etc and pushed ourselves hard. You had to keep up or it was horribly obvious. After about six months a mate form an old band came to see us play and afterwards told me it sounded like I'd gone off for three years to a music school.I hope to emulate some of that with my writing now.
Which writers a tutor favours or despises is irrelevant to how they make YOU a better writer. Everyone has their own style of writing. I would argue that a teacher who tries to influence who you admire is not a good teacher, and a teacher who is prejudiced (except against poor writing, sloppy writing, biased writing, writing that is not true to yourself) is a bad teacher.
[quote=SilentTony]If you took away all forms of creative writing education though, are you suggesting there would be no more writers in the world?[/quote]
[quote=Liz!]I'm not saying it's the only way, cos there are a huge number of writers out there who have never been on a course, [/quote]
Clearly not.
My point about no more writers was a flippant thought about what would happen if all CW courses shut down tomorrow. If every tutor refused to teach. How would people then learn to write?