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PAGE-LAYOUTS
How many words per page are 'standard? I am doing 1,1,1,2 margins on desktop, using 10 western font, and 1.5 line spacing. But I'm getting 18+ words per line on printouts, whereas most books appear to be about 12-14. Page depth looks o.k. at 36 lines. I therefore suspect that my story so far of 40 pages, may actually be about 60 pages. If correct, it will run to about 100 pages when finished.
John Cuttle
(Cuttle will do just fine)
Comments
http://www.shunn.net/format/novel.html
http://www.shunn.net/format/story.html
I'd prefer to just send something out when I'm ready, and see whether they're interested in it first of all. They could always return it with information on their formatting requirements, couldn't they? And you might get an opinion of your work at the same time then.
"They could always return it with information on their formatting requirements, couldn't they?"
No. You need to do your research first.
"Brilliant, I'm bloody starving...wait a minute, none of this stuff is what I ordered."
"Yeah, we took a guess at what you wanted, you can give me a list now and I'll go back to the store with it. Your actual shop, with the correct food, should be here next week."
"But I'm absolutely starvi..."
"Can I stop you there, Mr Cuttle? Could you fill out this 64-page form assessing our quality of driving, how I pulled up to your house, politeness, promptness of knocking..."
You get the idea. Would you use them again if they did that?
It's the same as any business that's going to get a hell of a lot of applications. For example, we send out tenders at work and companies compete to win the work...if they can't even follow the simple instructions (A4 applications, bound, in envelope, include all prices, etc.) how can we trust them to put up a building, or construct a bridge safely and on time/budget?!
Ignoring guidelines is saying you couldn't be bothered, or you were in too much of a rush to send your work...neither of which are things you want to advertise to someone who is going invest time and money into your work. You'll be extremely lucky to get feedback if you followed ALL the rules, never mind if you didn't! Hell, you're lucky to get a NO THANKS these days instead of just being ignored.
The same applies rigidly to competition entries: stick to the rules.
You won't get a free appraisal from a publisher and they won't waste their time returning work to you that doesn't meet their spec.
Will no doubt be back in a while with yet more questions (and still haven't explored the rest of Writers Online discussions yet). Bye for now.
The fact is, boredrobots, some publishers give very detailed guidelines while others definitely don't. Baggy Books, you can't research what isn't there.
Mrs Bear/Phots Moll, I found one which specified 3 chapters initially (fine) but nothing about page layouts. So I contacted them about it to ask (which is what I'd said I'd need to do, in earlier posts on here), and was given a free hand to present it how I like. No specifications.
A different one was very specific (good) re margins, font, and line-spacing . Yet another one was 'Not taking submissions at the present time', which was quite useful as a time saver!
Anyway, it's all progress of a kind. I've spent the last few days formatting everything I've done so far. Time to get back to writing.
How do I insert page numbers? I don't see how the Windows XP operating system on my desktop computer can do it, because the numbering will always be outside the margins I've set for the text. Especially if I want the page numbers to be in the top right corner of the page. I thought about trying to put page numbers somewhere into the bottom wide margin, but that seems impossible too, because I'd have to change the margins to make it print, and then wordpad would immediately change the whole text and print it right up to that point instead of keeping it the way I need it to be. I don't see any way out of it, and I'm therefore stuck with un-numbered pages. Help!
Print layout shows it best.
And Headers/Footers are normal text (or whatever you put in them) but "locked" from editing until you specifically click in them, that's all. Easy enough to set up if you have a bit of play until it clicks
PS. Just went into Font and finally sorted out the re-setting too, so that it doesn't keep on defaulting to a previous font all the time. So another nagging problem sorted out! Have to go out now, will be back later, no doubt.
Won't page numbering be set by the publisher after using their own guidelines? Even if we set numbers, marginal margin changes (sorry!) or font change will throw pre-set numbers out the door.
Most of us probably use page numbers only for our own reference.
On a sort of side note, I remember a good (oh crap...) 20 years ago (at least, yeesh) measuring the pages of a book and setting Word to be the same...trying to get the font the same, etc. Cringeworthy to look back on, but hey, I was still learning...and always will be!
I cannot see the required buttons via either View or Insert, as there's nothing about H/F or page-numbering at all, which probably means I'm using too old a version of Microsoft Word.
My wife came up with an idea that in these digital days we would call archaic: "Just pencil all the page numbers in the corner of the MS yourself." You can see why I love her to bits, can't you.
Gimme a shout if you want a hand!
Am getting the hang of H/F and page-numbering, but should the title page be Page 1 or should the start of the text be Page 1? Microsoft Word seems to have decided it's the former.
Secondly, do you think Chapters should always start on a new page, or can they be on the same page after a wider space and a roman numeral as I do it at present? (I don't use Chapter titles)
Also the very wide margin all round and the double line spacing is resulting in 28 lines per page, less than I'd expect to see in a book. Again doesn't matter because anything accepted would be re-formatted later. Perhaps they want them like this for ease of reading? Good to make progress . Back to writing!
Is it software you can purchase?
However if you intend to submit the piece somewhere, it might be a good idea to follow the house style of your chosen market.
Thanks for the response.
When you tick the Different First Page box you edit that header/footer independently.
Hi, Cuttle. My 'pack' to Troubador, was the second of five crime/mystery novels to be published by the Matador imprint.
Their requirements are not so different from most publishers. They might well be more relaxed, because I have published with Lulu and Amazon Direct, both of which have very stringent requirements. Troubador requires on Word doc or PDF, with the usual 1.5 line spacing, proper page and section breaks as appropriate between chapters/front/end matter and a concise rear cover blurb.
As for the formatting, the usual tabulated paragraphs as set with auto tablature (via the paragraph ribbon, then Indents & Spacing, then Tabs menu.) As long as there are no what are known as 'hard returns' the MS will easily format to their Adobe publishing program. As for 'house style', Troubador follows the Oxford Style Manual (Hart's Rules is an invaluable guide) https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Harts-Rules-Handbook-Style-Writers-Editors-Reference/0198610416
There are always small intricacies that differ between publishing houses. For instance, Troubador prefers no space before an elipsis follows a word… whereas some houses insist on a space …
In general, it takes a few to and fros to learn the requirements of any working relationship. The good thing with Troubador is that they have the ability to bring a MS up to scratch with 'global changes'. I guess what you have to weigh up is whether you are prepared to make an investment in yourself, or whether you go a trial run with Amazon or Create Space first up.
Regards
P
Anyone can use global changes. It's useful AND dangerous.
The important thing to remember is that the author is still responsible for proofing the content. I've yet to read one of their books and find it error-free.
'Edinburgh, England' is one that still makes me chuckle. That was sent to me as an example of their quality. If you submit a manuscript with errors, you will have a book with errors - albeit beautifully produced.
My feelings are, and this is important for 'Cuttle', is that some writers are so impatient to be published that they compromise too much on editing - to the detriment of their work.
By the way, when did England cede Edinburgh to Scotland?
One publisher I've thought about approaching is Canongate in Edinburgh, who seem to want three sample chapters only at first, plus synopsis. Another one I might approach is Pegasus publishers in Cambridge, and send them the whole MS.
Formatting:- I've made quite a bit of progress in understanding typical formats now, and have noticed that, for example, if a printed MS is sent, then they usually have the author's name and story title in the Header on every page. A sample format was actually a subject in the Jan issue of WFmagazine. I also noticed word count is included lower down on a title page.
There was also discussion about italics versus underlining, as preferences vary. I gather also that some publishers want paragraph indenting and others don't. I prefer indenting now, but have stopped doing extra spacing between paras, as I can see that isn't necessary. I'm also double-line spaced and Arial 10 font at present, which looks absolutely fine.
I'm not sure what your phrase 'no hard return' means (about line-endings?)
Regards,
Cuttle.
I did botch the piece about 'hard returns'. Hard for me to explain, but it refers to properly setting indents. I hope a more knowledgeable TBer might assist you. I think boredrobots is wise in this area.
The whole exercise is a steep learning curve. All the best!
http://selfpublishingadvice.org/allis-self-publishing-service-directory/self-publishing-service-reviews/#listing-P
Baggy Books. Phew! Thank goodness I left a message on here. The Alert category! I did look at ALLI once before and hadn't realised they had the SPAC. Think I'll apply for Associate membership before doing anything [Yes, an "Ass" member would be about right for me at the moment, and "No, Pegasus, not just now"]. Narrow escape.
I'm also getting on with revision run-through this week and it's going very well.
Not done a precise word count yet on MS Word desktop, but it's in the region of 37,000-38,000.
I just offer this for your 'tool box'. And of course you are quite right if considering CreateSpace: simplify the whole process and adapt to their specifics.
On 12-point font, I will do that for CreateSpace if it is their standard.
On italics v underlining, I recently worked through changing one or two emphasised words to U, but as there were so few, changed back to I again (which, incidentally, I use in a variety of situations).
On line-spacing, I've become less keen on 1.5 and much prefer double spacing if it can be accepted.
On page-numbering, I've seen top left/right mostly, and centre bottom in the footer with some novel publishers.
What you upload is what is printed. CS don't have a standard font or font size. You need to decide what best suits your book.