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[quote=Dwight]The Stieg Larsson trilogy.[/quote]
Everyone I speak to about the Stieg Larsson trilogy (and I have read the three of them) comments how incredibly charismatic the character of Lisbeth Salander is , and that - in their opinion - the opportunity to relate to Salander and be sympathetic to her is the main reason for their enjoyment of the book. So it seems we have an example of work in which an author can devise a plot of outstanding quality, originality and detail and create a character which surpasses even the quality of the plot. I'm inclined to agree with this view although I would argue that Salander doesn't carry the responsiblity for the entire success of the trilogy although I would agree that she is probably eighty per cent of the reason for it.
PBW, have you not seen the gaping great holes in her storylines? I read two and was utterly disgusted by them! One I didn't finish, it was awful! Her heroine is so weak and wishy washy, allowing life to dictate what happens rather than her, I could not go with it at all. I had to be careful when I realised my best friend was devouring them ... one of the problems, which we have discussed on the board, of encouraging someone to read a book because you loved it. Someone else is bound sure to hate it.
Of course, there is another alternative. You can have plot and exceptional characterisation. There is a delicate balance between both, but it's perfectly possibly to have plot driven novels which are fed by plot driven characters, and these tend to work the less characters you have crowding your story. I found this with my own novel which is, essentially, plot driven, and yet the characters stand off the pages and drive the story. Of course, have spent years bringing them together as one cohesive unit.
There is balance to everything, and this is no different. It's just finding it.
[quote=Carol]The Nottingham contingent of Talkback will hopefully be able to arrange to meet up with Dorothy when she gets here- whenever it will be.[/quote]
Here's the reason Claudia {I think}
[quote=dorothyd]a bit scary but my editor thinks I am capable of doing it. I will be going to Nottingham for meetings with the author and publishers[/quote]
Dorothyd was sharing news of a potential commission regarding ghost writing for someone, it's mid{ish} way down on page 1 of this thread.
[quote=dorothyd]PBW, have you not seen the gaping great holes in her storylines?[/quote]
Well I think I did now you come to mention it but once the plot got going, they didn't seem so important. Also I felt that he put in just enough of the back story to make it OK. We're all up against what you mentioned though, I too have friends who thinks the construction is faultless and they are so evangelical about it that frankly it isn't worth going through the stress of trying to argue it. Best to agree to differ. When all's said and done though, that trilogy is a mammoth achievement and I found it a captivating experience to live in the world of Swedish journalism etc etc whilst I read them.
[quote=Red]exceptional characterisation.[/quote]
would you mind elaborating on that? I'm working on my MC at the moment. She has some muddled thinking in places and one of my readers suggested that her story is presented in the first person present tense. (In fact I had written it like that and I changed it all to first person simple past so now I have to change it all back again *sigh* and it's taking ages. Ho hum - these things test our dedication.) I am currently sorting out her muddled thinking and also thinking carefully about her reactions to events whether they are always consistent with her personality.
[quote=paperbackwriter]I changed it all to first person simple past so now I have to change it all back again [/quote]
I hope you're not making a change you don't sound entirely happy with on the basis of one reader's suggestion. Whilst feedback is always to be welcomed, in the end you must go with your own gut feeling.
[quote=paperbackwriter]I am currently sorting out her muddled thinking [/quote]
Straightforward, predictable characters aren't always what readers want; she sounds interesting and very human if her thinking is muddled! ;)
[quote=claudia]I hope you're not making a change you don't sound entirely happy with on the basis of one reader's suggestion.[/quote]
No I thought about it for a few days. The MC is in first person present tense. She has a doppelganger who appears one third of the way through the book who is also in first person present tense. That's working well. There is a battle between these two.
Author's voice and secondary characters are in third person past tense.
MC dies at the end of Part One. In the two chapters building up to the death, I continue from her POV but I pull back the psychic distance from first person present to third person simple past and her actual death is told through the eyes of a hearsay witness to it.
Part Two continues with the fallout of the unexpected death and the continuation of the story around that are taken up by her widowed husband, in FP present.
I think the contrast between the tenses is working well. Does it make sense to you?
[quote=claudia]Straightforward, predictable characters aren't always what readers want; she sounds interesting and very human if her thinking is muddled! ;)[/quote]
Good point. I shall bear that in mind.
[quote=paperbackwriter]Does it make sense to you? [/quote]
Truthfully? No - I've gone cross-eyed, but that doesn't mean anything! It sounds like the sort of storyline that has to be read in order to fully understand how it works and I shall look forward to reading the finished result one day. :)
going back a few postings, I referred to the Scarpetta books which I found atrocious, not the Swedish ones which I have not read.
Currently reading Gerald Seymour. Now, for plots that overtake characters and characters who dictate plots, he is out there on the winning line and all competitors are left half a marathon behind.
[quote=paperbackwriter]I have to change it all back again *sigh* and it's taking ages[/quote]
An example of reason to never delete edited works.
Hopefully you are working on a copy and will still have the changed version for future reference, even if you decide to continue with the edit of the edited version.
[quote=claudia]I hope you're not making a change you don't sound entirely happy with on the basis of one reader's suggestion. Whilst feedback is always to be welcomed, in the end you must go with your own gut feeling.[/quote]
Completely agree, Claudia.
It's always great to receive opinion and advice from others, but I often wonder (and fear) that some people may become too caught up in this.
At the end of the day opinions will ALWAYS differ in the writing world.
This thread even shows how advice can be down to opinion. Take Dan Brown, as mentioned a few posts ago; he's clearly a writer who brings joy to many, but there are still those who seem to despise his writing. It's such a vast difference of opinion and that highlights that nobody can be right, or even have the right, to dictate what should be.
I personally think you need to take advice very carefully. Listen to it, taste it, but don't always swallow it. :-)
best way to make sales.
Here's hoping someone criticises one of my modern autobiographies, and gets plastered all over the papers ... that would be good for sales!
My company once got into the NOTW and we were told to triple our print runs ... all publicity is good, bad or otherwise. Dan Brown had his share of that, and his sales rocketed.
[quote=paperbackwriter]would you mind elaborating on that?[/quote]
Exeptional meaning exactly what it says on the tin. There are so many characters that are two dimensional and samey it's unreal. There are not many books lately that have made me care much about the main character. The reason? While they may be somewhat interesting, they lack true depth and dimension. You have to create characters that are not only believable, but real, the kind of deep emotional people that leap off the page and make the reader want to empathise, know more and be part of that character's journey.
when Howard Spring wrote Hard Times, he had no intention of writing a sequel but was bombarded with letters asking for more about the central characters. That says everything, yes?
I also know when I finished Shabby Tiger I was disappointed to find that the sequel did not follow Nick Faunt and Anna Fitzgerald, as it had in the first book, but diverted to Rachel Rosing who, although a fascinating and indepth character, still left me wanting to know about the others.
And, when I read Lord Of The Rings, no matter whose story I am following, I want to know what is happening with the others. when the quest divides them and sends them on their separate journeys.
[quote=Jan]An example of reason to never delete edited works.
Hopefully you are working on a copy and will still have the changed version for future reference, even if you decide to continue with the edit of the edited version. [/quote]
Yes if I'm making a major revision I save it as a new version. I'm currently on V8 of Third Draft. I've got all my previous work in a file on the desktop, and on a portable hard drive and on USB sticks.
[quote=dorothyd]And, when I read Lord Of The Rings, no matter whose story I am following, I want to know what is happening with the others. when the quest divides them and sends them on their separate journeys.[/quote]
I felt the same when reading LOTR, Dorothy. It makes me feel that it must be all right to create a novel where you hop from one protagonist's story to another. The reader, if it's well done, should be happy with either and knows that they'll soon be returning to the other one anyway.
I'm reading The Old Curiosity Shop at the moment, my all time favourite Dickens. In this he freely writes
'we can now go back to our heroine whom we left some chapters ago' so yes, it is all right, if he does it!
Comments
I have read several of them and they are really gripping - real 'page turners'
Everyone I speak to about the Stieg Larsson trilogy (and I have read the three of them) comments how incredibly charismatic the character of Lisbeth Salander is , and that - in their opinion - the opportunity to relate to Salander and be sympathetic to her is the main reason for their enjoyment of the book. So it seems we have an example of work in which an author can devise a plot of outstanding quality, originality and detail and create a character which surpasses even the quality of the plot. I'm inclined to agree with this view although I would argue that Salander doesn't carry the responsiblity for the entire success of the trilogy although I would agree that she is probably eighty per cent of the reason for it.
So we're back to character again.
We are indeed back to character again.
There is balance to everything, and this is no different. It's just finding it.
?
[quote=dorothyd]a bit scary but my editor thinks I am capable of doing it. I will be going to Nottingham for meetings with the author and publishers[/quote]
Dorothyd was sharing news of a potential commission regarding ghost writing for someone, it's mid{ish} way down on page 1 of this thread.
Well I think I did now you come to mention it but once the plot got going, they didn't seem so important. Also I felt that he put in just enough of the back story to make it OK. We're all up against what you mentioned though, I too have friends who thinks the construction is faultless and they are so evangelical about it that frankly it isn't worth going through the stress of trying to argue it. Best to agree to differ. When all's said and done though, that trilogy is a mammoth achievement and I found it a captivating experience to live in the world of Swedish journalism etc etc whilst I read them.
would you mind elaborating on that? I'm working on my MC at the moment. She has some muddled thinking in places and one of my readers suggested that her story is presented in the first person present tense. (In fact I had written it like that and I changed it all to first person simple past so now I have to change it all back again *sigh* and it's taking ages. Ho hum - these things test our dedication.) I am currently sorting out her muddled thinking and also thinking carefully about her reactions to events whether they are always consistent with her personality.
I hope you're not making a change you don't sound entirely happy with on the basis of one reader's suggestion. Whilst feedback is always to be welcomed, in the end you must go with your own gut feeling.
[quote=paperbackwriter]I am currently sorting out her muddled thinking [/quote]
Straightforward, predictable characters aren't always what readers want; she sounds interesting and very human if her thinking is muddled! ;)
No I thought about it for a few days. The MC is in first person present tense. She has a doppelganger who appears one third of the way through the book who is also in first person present tense. That's working well. There is a battle between these two.
Author's voice and secondary characters are in third person past tense.
MC dies at the end of Part One. In the two chapters building up to the death, I continue from her POV but I pull back the psychic distance from first person present to third person simple past and her actual death is told through the eyes of a hearsay witness to it.
Part Two continues with the fallout of the unexpected death and the continuation of the story around that are taken up by her widowed husband, in FP present.
I think the contrast between the tenses is working well. Does it make sense to you?
Good point. I shall bear that in mind.
Truthfully? No - I've gone cross-eyed, but that doesn't mean anything! It sounds like the sort of storyline that has to be read in order to fully understand how it works and I shall look forward to reading the finished result one day. :)
Currently reading Gerald Seymour. Now, for plots that overtake characters and characters who dictate plots, he is out there on the winning line and all competitors are left half a marathon behind.
An example of reason to never delete edited works.
Hopefully you are working on a copy and will still have the changed version for future reference, even if you decide to continue with the edit of the edited version.
I was just about to point out that too, Dorothy!
Completely agree, Claudia.
It's always great to receive opinion and advice from others, but I often wonder (and fear) that some people may become too caught up in this.
At the end of the day opinions will ALWAYS differ in the writing world.
This thread even shows how advice can be down to opinion. Take Dan Brown, as mentioned a few posts ago; he's clearly a writer who brings joy to many, but there are still those who seem to despise his writing. It's such a vast difference of opinion and that highlights that nobody can be right, or even have the right, to dictate what should be.
I personally think you need to take advice very carefully. Listen to it, taste it, but don't always swallow it. :-)
Best of luck PBW! :-)
If not millions.
Here's hoping someone criticises one of my modern autobiographies, and gets plastered all over the papers ... that would be good for sales!
My company once got into the NOTW and we were told to triple our print runs ... all publicity is good, bad or otherwise. Dan Brown had his share of that, and his sales rocketed.
While we hope it's constructive, unfortunately that's not always the case. Jealousy, inexperience, blinkered opinions all can contribute to criticism.
Is that how they're being marketed? That's sure to attract attention.
[quote=paperbackwriter]would you mind elaborating on that?[/quote]
Exeptional meaning exactly what it says on the tin. There are so many characters that are two dimensional and samey it's unreal. There are not many books lately that have made me care much about the main character. The reason? While they may be somewhat interesting, they lack true depth and dimension. You have to create characters that are not only believable, but real, the kind of deep emotional people that leap off the page and make the reader want to empathise, know more and be part of that character's journey.
I also know when I finished Shabby Tiger I was disappointed to find that the sequel did not follow Nick Faunt and Anna Fitzgerald, as it had in the first book, but diverted to Rachel Rosing who, although a fascinating and indepth character, still left me wanting to know about the others.
And, when I read Lord Of The Rings, no matter whose story I am following, I want to know what is happening with the others. when the quest divides them and sends them on their separate journeys.
Hopefully you are working on a copy and will still have the changed version for future reference, even if you decide to continue with the edit of the edited version. [/quote]
Yes if I'm making a major revision I save it as a new version. I'm currently on V8 of Third Draft. I've got all my previous work in a file on the desktop, and on a portable hard drive and on USB sticks.
I felt the same when reading LOTR, Dorothy. It makes me feel that it must be all right to create a novel where you hop from one protagonist's story to another. The reader, if it's well done, should be happy with either and knows that they'll soon be returning to the other one anyway.
'we can now go back to our heroine whom we left some chapters ago' so yes, it is all right, if he does it!