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Up with this I will not put
I didnt know if youd had time to get food in.'
This is a line of dialogue from my WIP.
To be grammatically correct, I should have written,
1. 'I didn't know if you'd had time to get in food.' or
2. 'I didn't know if you'd had time to buy food.'
My character refused to say either of those. No. 1, she told me, sounded pompous and she doesn't say that. No. 2, she told me, she might have said, but because she was talking to her best friend, and their relationship is emotionally intimates, she says what I first wrote.
Since the subject of grammar has come up in other threads, let me ask the question:
Is there any instance where you end a sentence with a preposition? Are you aware that it's a Crime Against Gramm-o-rama and punishable by red pencil from The Editor?
If you do it, can you justify it?
Do you try to minimise the instances of it in your work?
http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/churchill.html
This is a line of dialogue from my WIP.
To be grammatically correct, I should have written,
1. 'I didn't know if you'd had time to get in food.' or
2. 'I didn't know if you'd had time to buy food.'
My character refused to say either of those. No. 1, she told me, sounded pompous and she doesn't say that. No. 2, she told me, she might have said, but because she was talking to her best friend, and their relationship is emotionally intimates, she says what I first wrote.
Since the subject of grammar has come up in other threads, let me ask the question:
Is there any instance where you end a sentence with a preposition? Are you aware that it's a Crime Against Gramm-o-rama and punishable by red pencil from The Editor?
If you do it, can you justify it?
Do you try to minimise the instances of it in your work?
http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/churchill.html
Comments
I can't think of when I last ended a sentence with a preposition, but I see no reason not to. If the correction of the preposition ending is clumsier than the original, or too stilted for the purpose, then I'd say there is good grounds to go with it.
Ever since the Star Trek thing, I've tried to avoid the split infinitive, if only to sound superior. Maybe, though, it's because it is a clear example of what not to do, which I always remember. Grammar rules are things you may have learnt back in your childhood, when they actually taught them in schools, along with spelling. Do younger editors/publishers adhere to the same rules which, by and large, they are too young to have learnt themselves?
Good point. I learnt my English in pre-history, when we had to do 'O' Level (as GCSE was then) English Language as one examination, and English Literature as a separate one.
[quote=bertiebear] the Star Trek thing[/quote] is hilarious, and I try and avoid it too.
If you listen to people in the real world and exclude the ums and ahs, they don't always talk grammatically.
But I would consider- with your first sentance- whether I would use a ? or not, and that depends upon context even though grammatically it may not be right.
PBW, that was how I did O'level English, two bits, language and literature. :)
I think there's also an argument in non-dialogue for using the least clumsy way of expressing something, even if it isn't strictly grammatical. Maybe depends on the market.
I interpret that as:
I didnt know if youd had time to get food in?'
which suggests the upward inflexion at the end of a sentence, a new (ish) fashion in our language, which personally I can't abide, but it could sound better like that, Carol, so I'm going to consider it. Thanks.
Goody, let's have some more opinions from opposing sides of the argument.
'...When Latin was a high-status language, grammarians used to try to force the rules of Latin onto English, a language with a rather different grammar. One such rule they invented was "do not split an infinitive" -- that is, do not put anything between the to and the rest of the verb. Their reasoning seems to be that, since it is impossible to split the single-word infinitive in Latin, one shouldn't split it in English, either. So, something like to boldly go is beyond the pale, according to these Latin grammarians.
I can think of two very good reasons for not splitting an infinitive.
Because you feel that the rules of English ought to conform to the grammatical precepts of a language that died a thousand years ago.
Because you wish to cling to a pointless affectation of usage that is without the support of any recognized authority of the last 200 years, even at the cost of composing sentences that are ambiguous, inelegant, and patently contorted.
It is exceedingly difficult to find any authority who condemns the split infinitive - Theodore Bernstein, H. W. Fowler, Ernest Gowers, Eric Partridge, Rudolph Flesch, Wilson Follett, Roy H. Copperud, and others too tedious to enumerate here all agree that there is no logical reason not to split an infinitive...'
-- Bill Bryson, Mother Tongue, 1990
More interesting reading on the subject from Fowler here
http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/cyc/s/split.htm
That ends with a preposition, but sounds fine to me. How else could you say it?
Split infinitives are a diferent matter - we probably all need a bit of thinking time when it comes to those, because we all speak that way and have to work out how to write it correctly. Boldly to go just sounds stilted, even if it's right!
'to baldly go' or even.
'to go baldly...'
The character speaks in her own fashion. Educated or otherwise. If she is from an area where the yocals don't know grammar from gran-ma then sentence structure is going to be the last of her considerations.
So really you need to be asking yourself if she is likely to be fussy about how split her infinitives are, if she's "west Midland-ish" with her inflections, and confuses her pre-positions with with post. Does she hold a highly educated qualifcation, is she wise beyond her years. A Sunday Times reader or a Daily Star?
"Have you turned the light on?"
"Have you turned on the light?"
I probably do this if I have a longer sentence.
"Have you turned on the light on the bedside table?"
(It's useful if you want to breathe!)
This thread reminds me of A-ha's song, Take On Me. (I've always puzzled over how often we'd say it that way round. I suppose it's the imperative with the emphasis on the final word.)
I love their music but I haven't a clue what they're talking about in that one.
Erm...what's the Star Trek thing?
'to boldly go where no man has gone before'
and the split infinitive became a standard joke amongst language purists.
Similar meaning to "Take a Chance On Me", I think.
'to boldly go where no man has gone before'[/quote]
It's funny and probably the most famous and most awful example writers can learn from. Yay for Star Trek!
Thanks.
;)