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How many murders is too many? (Writing related)

edited August 2011 in - Writing Problems
Of course I'm talking about a book I'm writing! It's a murder book so the correct answer is not “one”! I do not need to talk to the men in white coats.

Anyway, how many murders is too many? Where is the line between silly and shocking? For example twenty two senseless murders is silly if the author wants to the reader to understand that the killer likes to kill people in cold blood. The reader would understand this after at least five murders. If a bomb explodes then it is understandable that many people, hundreds, maybe a thousand can die.

The question is how many individual murders is too many before the shock of the crime and the hook of the book is lost?

Comments

  • I don't think more than about 5 - its not just the shock, but the fact that you want the murderer to be caught, and you can only take so much suspense before your brain needs a rest.
  • You are already too late ST.
    The shock of murder has worn off in the real world many years ago.

    On the other hand, I think for your book it depends on your story.
    If you have a real good hold on your plot, one is more than sufficient.
    You might be going for a Meatgrinder. In which case you need a murder every "X" minutes.
    It's up to you - and your plot of course.
  • [quote=st force]in cold blood.[/quote]

    Great book and a perfect example of how just one murder can be enough and create shock waves that ripple throughout many people's lives. Gully is almost right. I don't think people are actually anaesthetized toward murder but there is a lot more in fiction now. So the truly horrific route in story would be to show how these murders affect other people who are left behind. It is the survivors who carry the real horrors of these crimes around on their shoulders.
  • [quote=st force]shock of the crime and the hook of the book[/quote]
    All depends on ability to create sufficient intrigue holding attention of the reader.

    Agatha Christie was, perhaps, most successful in accomplishing correct balance.
    "The ABC Murders" detailed an apparent serial killer's intent; ultimately unveiling convoluted plot.
    "And Then There Were None" involves ten murderers becoming congregated together only to be embroiled in their own murders.

    There are, of course, other authors work portraying multiple demise.
    Shakespeare and Conan Doyle plus modern writers.
    As with any other genre, success will be achieved whenever plot unfolds with logical reason for its events.

    Good Luck, StForce.
  • Pretty much agree with the above. In the case of a novel ST, I think less is more. After all a murder can take only seconds (and might only fill half a page!) but the method/motive/mindset should form a hefty novel if you work hard on the plot. Whether it is the murder of one individual, or one event which kills many, you have ample opportunity for shock/grisly detail etc. Writing for TV or the Big Screen, more murders are perhaps preferred to let the special effects team do their worst. Good luck.
  • i think you should read some true psycho thrill stories . that you ll able to come close to reality and use that in your writing.


    <a href=http://www.contentdevelopmentpros.com>content writer</a>
  • Hi, Contentwriter. Welcome to Talkback. Why not introduce yourself on a new discussion under the Welcome Writers thread?
  • Would it not depend on the time span of the book like he could kill then be a time lapse the start killing again
  • Here's an idea- have as many murders as are necessary for the story.
  • A character can be a serial killer without you going into detail about every crime, StF: s/he could have committed any number of heinous deeds, but they can be revealed as a way of building the story and the suspense, whilst only concentrating on one or two crimes in detail. Finding out about his/her past misdeeds one by one can be a way of underlining the awfulness of the crime/s you have depicted in full.
  • I reckon about five. How many does it have to be befor he/she becomes a serial killer?
  • Three or more for a serial killer, over a period of more than a month.
  • Just finished doing a body count... I don't want to say how many but we are talking about double digits. Most of the deaths are very gruesome. ST has a very good point about the family and friends of the victim and how they are affected. I didn’t think of that. If a lover, for example, was to commit suicide on hearing the news of the murder who the killer be accountable for both of the deaths?

    My novel's takes place of the course of three weeks but not every death is noted, not every body is found...
  • [quote=st force] If a lover, for example, was to commit suicide on hearing the news of the murder who the killer be accountable for both of the deaths?[/quote]

    No because it would be a choice. However the choice would have been forced through a thinner spectrum due to the causality of the events.
  • [quote=st force]not every body is found... [/quote]

    Just when I thought it was safe to wash my hair!


    Midsomer Murders get away with murders - plural. The very OTTness is one of its selling points.
  • [quote=SilentTony]No because it would be a choice.[/quote] I'm sure that's correct legally, but also think you could make the reader blame your killer if that's what you want.
  • Well I wasn't thinking of legality. It is a choice. But as you say you could construct it so the reader did blame the killer if you wanted. However the problem there is making moral judgements in the story. It would be far too easy to slip into preaching and could put the reader off. I feel that it's the writer's job to allow the reader to make their own moral judgement without being too biased or leaning to close to their own beliefs.
  • After all the murderer has a reason (possibly) for what they are doing and the reader may sympathise/understand or not.
  • I think the impact and implications of the murder - on the vctim, family and the coppers who deal with the case - is the thing that makes a crime novel a corker, rather than the body count stacking up! I reckon 5 max is about right, anymore than that (unless it's a serial killer who has bumped people off previously before the book begins) and it starts to get a bit silly and a possible cover for a weak-ish plot.
  • Have you read any Caroline Graham (Midsomer murders)? I really enjoyed the fact that she got into the 'people' of the story. There was usually the 'big' murder at the beginning and then a few 'cover up' or 'follow on' murders afterwards (simular to Agatha Christie). I could think of a long list of characters i would like to bump off! I think go with the feel of your book and any number between 1 and a planet full should be enough!
  • As long as the planet in question isn't Earth, otherwise there'd be no-one left to solve the murders and the murderer would have to kill him/herself ;)
  • My own view is that scarcity value increases the wow factor, so I would limit myself to one or two well-chosen murders.

    If you want to ratchet up the tension factor, tell the anticipation (or dread) of the death from the victim's point of view.
  • I'm currently reading Mark Billingham's "Sleepyhead", and there are at least 5 murders so far, with possibly more, or at least more attempts, to come. I'm about two thirds of the way through. Of those 5, three have happened before the book begins, so are referred to but not described in detail.
  • [quote=paperbackwriter]My own view is that scarcity value increases the wow factor, so I would limit myself to one or two well-chosen murders.[/quote]

    Well, yes, otherwise you'd have no time for writing, would you, PBW?
    We writers are a scary lot!
  • The book I'm reading has eight but only five have happened so far. They seem to have caught the murder so I'm damned if it isn't him!

    What if I was to do flashbacks of the murders shortly after they happen or perhaps flashbacks of the murders that have happened before the book? They still count as murders and are remembered by the reader but they don’t interfere with the plot line too much. Am I allowed to under empathize one murder for a more important one?
  • [quote=st force]Am I allowed to under empathize one murder for a more important one?[/quote]

    That's a very dangerous ground to tread. If you start prioritising life the reader will quickly lose faith in you. Of course some murders have a great ripple than others so that would be okay if treated well. The problem with dealing with the murders in flashback is they will lose a great deal of impact. They are already dead yet you're asking the reader to put the story on hold for a while so you can take them back to a place before the story began.

    If you can weave these murders into the story while maintaining forward motion then that's best way to deal with them. They may be used as a counterpoint to a new murder say or have a link. Even serial killers are judged less on the body count and more on motive or shock value of their spree. Look at Ted Bundy. His crimes seemed more shocking because he was a good looking, well respected charming young man with powerful connections and a bright future.

    So I personally would concentrate more on the motives of the killer and the impact of his crimes rather than trying to stack up a pile of bodies to prod.
  • Interesting analysis, ST. I don't write crime so I don't have a clue but I'm willing to watch and learn (so to speak...).

    [quote=SilentTony] Even serial killers are judged less on the body count and more on motive or shock value of their spree[/quote]

    I don't know what the rest of you thought, but I found The Silence of The Lambs the scariest murder (attempted murder) film I have EVER watched. The scene when Jodie Foster is in the dark and he is watching her throught the night vision goggles. Haven't watched it for years and it still makes me shudder.

    Tried to pick up a man in a bar recently (as you do) and his chat up line was, 'Do you like the Silence of the Lambs'? I skedaddled faster than you could say 'lamb chops'.
  • Creepy...
  • [quote=SilentTony]Even serial killers are judged less on the body count and more on motive or shock value of their spree.[/quote]

    Absolutley. Ed Gein, one of the world's most famous 'serial killers' isnt technically a serial killer. He killed two people, but the horrific things he did with the bodies (plus some other natural deaths he dug up) gained him a place in every 'shocking crimes' and 'serial killers' book there is on the market.

    I think body count is different for every story, one, two, three...a hundred. It all depends on the character and their motivations for murder. No figure will cheapen or spoil the story, no matter how small or large. Ed Gein (2), Harold Shipman (218, maybe more), both are 'interesting' cases neither one any less shocking than the other.

    I think the natural flow of the story is going to be the only deciding factor in body count, StF.
  • edited August 2011
    I was going to mention Ed Gein. It's amazing how much his crimes have resonated across the world and across the decades. So many films have been influenced by what he did. I think this flows with my own thinking. As BR says a lot of what he did wasn't even murder, but what he did with those bodies made people consider him more of a monster than a murderer. To debase humans and turn them into things, objects like cheap thrift store tat really upset people.

    You could even use old Leather Apron himself, Jack the Ripper too. He 'only' killed five victims and they were 'only' prostitutes, people who were regarded as less than human at the time. Whether he even did kill all five or committed more murders is not the point. He's now the most famous serial killer in history even though he was never caught or (if you believe) identified. The enigmatic nature of this elusive murderer only adds to the curiosity of his legend. Again like Bundy he was also described as well connected, charming and a gentleman.

    For me the real horror show even above Shipman (who loses power of shock through the law of diminishing returns) for me is Gacy. His crimes and motivation were sickening. Of course you have many motives beside lust and power. You also have to consider child killers, especially female child killers like Hindley and people who evade arrests like The Zodiac Killer. Or even Chikatilo who not only killed over 50 people but sat back and allowed three other people to be executed for the crimes he committed. That's some story right there.

    So I don't think body count matters either being low or high. As BR says if it's needed for the story then the number dictates itself. I always find the back story of the murderer, the motives, the deceit and the devastation more interesting though. I mean there have been far more people killed in murders at one time than all the serial killers put together. If you think about 9/11, as I'm sure we all are as the anniversary approaches, then almost three thousand people were murdered by a few men in a few hours. As bad as that is and as devastating as the consequences were I think we'd still all be repulsed if we found out one man had purposely planned and executed half a dozen victims over a year or more. There's something about that thin line that keeps us from being monsters that terrifies us all when we hear of it.

    I guess in a way we shudder because we know it could have been us or somebody we know if things had only been slightly different. Now that my friends is real horror.
  • edited August 2011
    I am so glad I don't write crime (murders and such)...
  • No I couldn't either. I already find life scary enough, thank you.
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