More is less in writing skills

M. Welshman

M. Welshman

Having skipped through Dan's excerpts on another thread. it reminded me of the 'more is less' abilty of good writers to express what they want to put across without resorting to explicit details - whether that be what organs are being manipulated in the shower to the colour of an arrid landscape in a setting sun. Just painting a picture with one or two words requires consumate skill and a deft knowledge of language. But how much more rewarding it can be to the reader. Patrick Gale can desribe gay sexual encounters without a gender member being mentioned. Or if he slips one in then it is highly charged merely from not being overused and so blunting the impact. Helen Dunmore writes exquisite prose almost lyrical in its style and can conjure up a scene without hammering it with cliches. For a prose style where words are pared down to their minimum requirement for effect then read The Good Doctor by Damon Galgut. No superfluous words there.  But goodness. What drama he portrays through those sparse words. The sign of a good writer. So before I overstep the mark I'll say no more. Or in other words, less said the better.

Crazy Horse

This view always puzzles me, much vaunted writers such as Paul DoHerty and Bernard Cornwell describe voilent death in minute detail for page after page which I frankly I  find nauseating. When a detaild decription of a sexual encouner is offered it is decried. I find this attitude quite perverted. Hopeully I can still learn from detailed descrption, but I want to msake love not kill someone 

M. Welshman

I take your point Thermobird.  But literature moves on. You try getting a Dickens style format published in this day and age and you could find it difficult.  People's attention span is that much less these days aka the sound bits on TV and clipped journalistic styles in newspapers. So if a writer can hold someone's attention and evoke a scene in a few words, that to my mind is a skill to be admired. That's not to say the long, descriptive novels are to be discounted providing they can still hold the reader's interest and the wording adds to the narrative and doesn't get in the way of the plot and its development. Everyone has their preferences. It would be interesting to hear from other Talkbackers on the subject.

SilentTony

"...gay sexual encounters without a gender member being mentioned. Or if he slips one in then it is highly charged"  Ooer Missus!

Jay Mandal

I'm afraid I was struck by the following:
'"futile with asthma".  Absolutely inspirational.' Too much punning around?

neil

Nice one, Silent.

neil

Breathtaking, Jay.

Peter

I've about had enough all you 'good writers' criticising my writing skills. If you're all so good at writing, why are you writing on this forum instead of concentrating on on all your own no doubt soon-to-be critically acclaimed (?!) & celebrated (!?) best-selling (!?) novels? 

I have an idea that I think is original. Why criticise it? Anyone else out there have any great ideas? Unlikely, otherwise you'd be working on them.

Anyone who has written a book (as you know - I have, I'm working on the second) will know that the editing process is the most time consuming part. The excerpt I posted has now been edited, considerably. The gratuitous words & violence have gone, so thanks. But any writer will know that you write first, and then edit, and then edit some more and then edit even more. Before putting it to bed for a couple of weeks and then editing some more.

M. Welshman

If you can't stand the fire Dan, then don't poke your head above the parapet.

Peter

'Good writers' do not need to use phrases such as that to get their point across. Back to the drawing board for you Mr Welshman.

M. Welshman

Ouch Dan. Raw nerve syndrome here I think. You state that why are Talkback members bothering to put messages here when they should be writing. Well maybe they are. And just not fussed about advertising the fact.  Back to the drawing board eh? Well back to my writing certainly having had my tea break.  Am half way through preparing an after dinner talk having just completed and sent off a 1000 word feature for a magazine to be published in May. Oh.. yes..nearly forgot.  Third chapter of my sequel written as well.  Bully for me eh? But then I don't mind being a target if it's warranted. This is a friendly site.  Good fun. Plenty of banter. I'm sure we'd all like to keep it that way.
PS Sour grapes make a bad whine.

TaffetaPunk

I'm not going to get into this argument, but I think it's a good thing that we all have different tastes in literature, popular fiction, erotic fiction, SF, whatever we like.  Tight writing is difficult, which is why it stands out so much when we come across some of it.  Most of us have a hard time finding exactly the right words, and I know how hard it is, because although none of them have yet been published, I'm currently writing my fourth book (unpublished, because I'm personally not happy yet and need to edit them again, so Dan, I do know what you're talking about).

It's a shame people are arguing on this otherwise friendly and advice-laden message board.  I come here for companionship with fellow writers who know how I'm feeling, not for a row.  I know not everyone can get on, but live and let live, guys, eh?  What offends one person might be art to someone else ('Kill Bill', for example, is gratuitous violence, so if you don't like it, you don't have to watch it).

Our diversity is what makes us human.

M. Welshman

Nicely put TP. Exactly how I feel.  And I'm sure you echo the sentiments of most Talkbackers.  Yes, we're all different in our tastes whether it's writing, reading or just living. We need to respect those differences in others.  Here endeth the lesson. Amen.

Jan

That said M.Welshman,

It is a shame you chose to bite poor Dan earlier in the thread.

I read the introductory post as an informative contribution, similar to a previous thread full of good/helpful advice for the aspiring majority. To an independent spectator, I read no slur upon any individual.

Dan,

I understand you may feel raw from earlier "attacks" but postings on other threads prove the consequence of posting blunt language. This thread, however, was actually inspired by your book thread. Take it as a compliment.

Yes SilentTony,

I wondered if the quip was intentional (being aware of M.Welshman's tendency toward puns) keep him on his toes.

SilentTony

All I know is this; I did not write for years because I went to a group that was full of cats thrown into a ring from hell. Put me off in a very dramatic way. I have recently started a course, novel and other things too, which I am so excited and positive about. So Hey! I subscribed to WM/WN and love it and obviously thought the forum would be as helpful and warm as the brilliant magazine. So why am I reading teenage quarrels from two published writers? I wish I had the advantage of being slagged off for my published book. Come on people we should be a community out to help each other. Both should look again at their attitudes. All I want is to see how they BOTH are progressing and follow that journey, to celebrate and maybe learn. If this is what it is like when you do get published then I am sorry, what a very bad example is being set for those of us who are in waiting.

Crazy Horse

Advice and criticsm. give generously ONLY when askd for. i happen to be a comptent tornament brdge player and at club level somtimes find myself playing against very weak players. If asked, and ony then I will offer any help I can. Some plyers feel that having spotted an error in bidding or play they must immediately show their skill and expertise by offering  unsolicited comment earning themselves the title of big headed pain in the bum.

M. Welshman

This 'more or less' is becoming a bit 'more' than ever intended.  Claudia and Jan are right in having seen it as a thread set up with the intent to discuss this topic. If the first lines of the thread are read correctly then there is no criticism of Dan's work. In fact it can be read as complimenting his work as it says'I'm reminded of good writers'.  If it's open to misinterpretation then what does it say of the person misinterpreting it? As to teenage spats..and such quarrels not being what the site is all about...oh dear...I risk becoming even more of a boring old fart than I am by reiterating yet again that this site is to exchange views in a civilised manner and have some fun along the way. Getting prickly and then seemingly sticking the knife in is not on.  It's certainly not in tune with the general ambience of this site and it's good to read fellow members are anxious that it remains a friendly informative site and are saying so in tactful ways.
Although somewhat vexed by the way this thread erupted so unpleasantly, it is interesting to see yet again the power of words. And how people can read different things into them. There are so many shades of interpretation which is what makes writing such an exciting and thought-provoking process.  All power to your elbows, fellow Talkbackers.  And have yourselves a great Mothering Sunday. That's more or less it.

Peter

Mr Welsheyman, please don't insult my intelligence by saying I misinterpreted the first lines of your thread.

On a side note, I can't really be doing with all this any more, so pleasant talking to you all, thanks for the laughs - I mean constructive critiscm - take care of yourselves and happy writing.

May the force be with you.

Neph

Could someone please tell Steven King this, I think I may die of boredom before finishing 'Cell'.

I think it all depends on what you are doing, sometimes you need the description to really set the scene and the tension, sometimes you dont I think a good writer is the one that can tell the difference. 

Neph

Hubby bought it me for my birthday so I feel that I should finish it, although I really am struggling, I used to love SK but he just irritates me now.

But yea Dorothy if we all liked the same stuff life would be so boring.

Stirling

In the end it not writers, agents, publishers or anyone in this industry that decides what is good writing is, that is down to the reader, and if it sells.  A bad book will die anyway.

As for editing, the author cannot carry out the whole editing process themselves, our books/article/poems/screenplays are our babies and we need someone to point out their weakness, because we are blinded because we are too close to our work.

Fact: When we send work out we are opening ourselves to being attacked and criticised that is what art is about.  If you don't like it, you are in the wrong indusrty.

Stirling

Fact 2: We all need an independent editor.

Ps I come on to this forum to wind down after a hard day at work, that then allows me to write.  Don't judge other people if you don't have a clue about their lives.

Stirling

Do you think we upset Dan?.

Neph

Probably!!!

Stirling

He had a nerve pulling the I'm published and you're not line, when he had been published by a vanity publisher (Athena).

I suspect the reason he went straight to a vanity publisher is that no reputable publisher would take it anyway.

Island Girl

Ah, this is making a LOT of sense, now. (I hadn't realised it was through a Vanity Publisher)

Getting back to MW's original thoughts, do you think it's a fine line between good description and tight writing? I'm not talking about flowery, rambling prose - but just how much is the right amount of description before going over the top? And then I guess it also depends on the individual editors' preferences. I so admire minimalist writing that tells you everything you need to know and 'see' in as few words as possible. One day I'll work out how to do it. (See? Even this reply is far more longwinded than it had to be, to say such a simple thing) Cheers :)

M. Welshman

Yes IG there is a fine line beteen saying enough and saying too much in words. My apprenticeship has been through writing features going back 30 years. In that medium you have to be very disiplined to create the effect you're looking for in a specific number of words. There it's a case of over-writing and then paring down. A bit like a sculpture. You chip away to carve down to the polished finish. Certainly my pieces - and I've had over 200 published - have usually been much the better for it. We all have had that experience of having to ditch a particularly inspired phrase because in the end it just doesn't add to the piece. As humour is my forte it's often been painful to cut out some of my plays on words. Where I have sometimes left them in I've paid the price. I remember one humorous feature where I'd put in some metaphors lifted from A.A. Gill's writng - yes, confession time I do occasionally use other people's ideas- only to have the editor come back to me having put red lines through all those particular phrases as not being in keeping. A case of me trying too hard and not in my own voice. It showed. Yet at the time of writing it I couldn't see it. All part of the evolving process of learning your craft. Point being you never stop learning no matter how much success you achieve in your writing. It would be arrogant to think otherwise.  Now where was I? Oh yes, more is less...well there you go. I've been waffling. See what I mean. I never learn. But I will keep trying.

Howard

I think this thread is reinforcing an important message. In my writing I frequently need to remind myself not to over-elaborate, not only in my choice of expression, but in plotting as well. Good stories don't have to have a thousand twists and turns, especially if the characters are well portrayed and have a precise role. This weekend I've set myself the task of analysing the functions of every character in my current novel to ensure there is no slack.

(It's something I like to apply more widely, particularly in my painting and cooking. At the suggestion of my art tutor, I've started to use a very limited palette which has helped me improve significantly. On the gastronomic front - and this is probably the influence of Spanish cooking - I prefer to prepare simple recipes well than labour over complicated dishes that combine a wide variety of flavours.) 

Stirling

In my first drafts I have a tendency to overwrite, and it takes several rewrites to get the prose tight.  My problem is liking words too much, I will go looking in a Thesaurus and seeing two words and using them both, instead of selecting the most precise one.

Stirling

Oops!.  My first sentence seems to have formed a rhymed couplet. 

That's what happens when I go back to poetry after eight years!.

neil

You're a poet, and you didn't know it - well nearly, anyway!