"try and" or "try to"

DeneBebbo

Do you write "try and" or "try to". The latter seems more logical, though a little formal depending on context. A quick look on the Internet suggests that "try and" dates back to the 17th century, so it's not as if it's a modern corruption.

dorothyd

Sometimes one is right, sometimes the other. Depends on the feel of the piece of writing.

collide-o-scope

I don't know dorothy

If the phrase is followed by a verb the surely it would have to be 'to' - try to run, try to cook, try to write etc.

Try and cook sounds wrong.

Red

Try to.

I got a blackboard rubber bounced off my head as a child for using 'try and' (In the days when kids knew who was boss in the classrom).

Piper

Well, I'm going to put my opinion in, for what it's worth. I think there's a difference between spoken language and written language. I use 'Try and' a lot in my spoken language, but probably 'try to' when writing.

But then, as I keep saying to my parents, my spoken language is something to be desired, considering I have A's and A*'s in English Language and Literature and I'm published...

DeneBebbo

[quote=Red]I got a blackboard rubber bounced off my head as a child for using 'try and' (In the days when kids knew who was boss in the classrom). [/quote]

I can remember having a heavy blackboard rubber thrown at me for something at school too. I wonder if any teachers put a kid's eye out doing that?!

dorothyd

COS, try to if you are writing formally, try and if you're not. Depends entirely on the context. Grammar rules don 't come into it if the 'feel' of the piece demands something else.

I wrote a very strange piece of flash fiction the other night, broken, disrupted sentences, more like random words strung together. That being could not have said 'try to' it would have had to have been 'try and' - if I had written it in.

Nothing wrong with 'try and cook those eggs' when spoken and some dialogue might demand that. Remember Jamie's thread on whether incorrect grammar is permissible for a character ... as I said, depends on context. Every time.

Dwight

That sounds particularly demonic, Red and DB. I suppose you're talking about the old style board dusters which were half-wood, half-duster. I shudder.

Oh by the way, I go with 'try to'.

dora

I had one of those thrown at me too and yes Dwight it was half wood, half duster. That teacher got around didn't he?

flyingtart

I don't know if this is right, it's just a feeling. "Try and" is two things, as in "I'm going to try and do better at school" - you are going to try, and you're going to do better. But "try to" is attempt to do the verb that follows, as in "Try to do better" - I will attempt to do better.

Blimey, English is complicated isn't it? I don't know how anyone learns it as a foreign language.

Red

[quote= Dwight]I suppose you're talking about the old style board dusters which were half-wood, half-duster. I shudder.[/quote]

Yep, them's the ones...

aeschylus

I'm with Ft and the others on this.

"Try and" may be found occasionally eg "if you don't succeed at first, try and try and try again". Three separate actions involving energy and effort.

But as a substitute for "try to"? Is that colloquial/ dialect?

Tell you what gets my goat. "I'll take it off of you". Take it FROM. But if you must use the ugly OFF, don't made it TWICE AS BAD by adding OF. Is it a Londonism/Bournemouthism? That's where the culprits I know spent their ill-used time in years gone by.

DeneBebbo

[quote=dora]I had one of those thrown at me too and yes Dwight it was half wood, half duster. That teacher got around didn't he? [/quote]

He sure did.

I can remember a teacher hitting me on the head with the heavy base of a stool (I was messing about, but even so her reaction was over the top). These days a teacher could probably get prosecuted for doing something like that, and quite rightly!

collide-o-scope

The half wood/half padded blackboard eraser (known as 'the pacifier' in staff rooms) was the weapon of choice for teachers with unruly or, it would appear, incorrect pupils. I remember once in German class a disinterested kid was ignoring the lesson and had become lost in his own little world where he twanged his plastic ruler on his desk lid like a springboard, shortening its length to change the pitch. The teacher stopped talking and the whole class looked to the twanging kid, who carried on oblivious. The teacher picked up a plastic case containing a roll of slides we had used in the lesson and he threw it with great force at the lad. It missed and hit the wall behind him and it shattered into smithereens. It would have caused considerable damage had it hit.

One day I was late for a lesson and I walked along the empty corridor banging the two hardback books I carried together like cymbals. It made a smashing din but the noise attracted the attention of a fearfully stern English teacher who came out of his classroom to investigate. He ordered me across and I approached in great trepidation for he was a terror. He took the books from me.

"That's an interesting noise, Young," he said, "let's see what it sounds like with your head in the middle."

And I got walloped in stereo.

I know that people complain that teachers cannot inflict any physical punishment on pupils these days but I think some of their methods are best consigned to the waste paper bin.

DeneBebbo

[quote=collide-o-scope]And I got walloped in stereo. [/quote]

That was an incredibly stupid thing for a teacher to do because of the damage it could have caused.

Talking about this kind of thing, have you read the short story called Galloping Foxley by Roald Dahl?

lexia

[quote=collide-o-scope]I know that people complain that teachers cannot inflict any physical punishment on pupils these days[/quote]

Do we ever hear of teachers making this complaint or is it people who have no idea of what teaching is like ? I can not understand anyone who has real teaching in their soul even considering physical punishment no matter what the misdemeanour.
Physical punishment is a pre planned action which is completely at odds with teaching good behaviour and respect. It must have been awful for Headteachers to have a line of people waiting to be beaten. Surely no one would choose to do this.

Sorry for that little rant and diversion. ;)

As has been said, "try and" is ok in speech and in certain contexts but "try to" I would say is the correct use.

heather

With FT on this 100% - I think it was even one of the Red Editing Pen exercises in WM recently.

In dialogue, if your character is not likely to use correct grammar, then by all means use 'try and', just as you might use 'would of'.
That doesn't make it right, though.

Rivington

With "try and" or "try to" the crucial thing is to know what the difference is and write according to the character you are trying to create.
And with "off of" I'm with Aeschylus. Interestingly, in Welsh the standard equivalent for "off" is "oddiwrth" which combines two prepositions, "oddi" and
"wrth" which basically mean off and of respectively.

Rosalie

I don't think 'try and' is as bad as 'would of' - not by a long chalk. It is slightly more informal than 'try to', but it crops up all the time in novels. I would use whichever sounds best - if you have another 'to' nearby, then 'try and' might sound better.

(Ex linguistics lecturer - no, I wasn't sacked :) )

(We had a needlework teacher at my school who once threw a pair of scissors at a pupil. Honest to God. Imagine if that happened nowadays. Nothing happened back then - fortunately she missed.)

heather

Dictionary .com would agree with you Rosalie. Not wrong, but very informal.

http://dictionary1.classic.reference.com/help/faq/language/g43.html

And of course I agree that 'would of' is much worse - I was trying to think of another common grammatical construction that is not (strictly or otherwise) correct, but would sit fine in dialogue.

Dwight

What about that regular barbarism of estate agents: a fine property comprising of 2 receptions, kitchen, three bedrooms, etc. Makes me squirm.

Red

I've had board rubbers and rulers thrown at me by teachers. A book as well. All for talking in class, not paying attention or being blamed for someone else's misdemeanour or just by challenging a teacher (which I did quite a lot). I can't say it did me any harm because it didn't (and I deserved it).

What did leave a mark, a very deep scar, was the pschological punishment, and those have stayed with me for the last 30 years and still affect me to this day. Physical marks go away. Psychological ones remain forever.

dorothyd

'dark sarcasm in the classroom / teacher, leave those kids alone'

Jenny

Our younger daughter's boyfriend was banned from religious education lessons. One day the teacher talked about creationism and the Earth. He said "What about the Big Bang?" (he used to watch The Sky at Night with his grandfather) and that was it. His mother was called in to the school and told he would no longer be allowed to attend the lessons. He was six.

It worked out OK for him because after that he had to spend RE lessons tidying the toy cupboard - his interpretation of "tidying" was playing with the toys!

Dwight

Jenny, I don't suppose there's any possibility that your daughter's boyfriend may have used Bang in another sense on the day, with accompanying tone of voice/intention to amuse? Just a suggestion, since the teacher/school reaction would suggest there was more to it than suggesting an alternative to the Christian view of creation.

Jenny

Nothing like that - it was confirmed by his mum! He's just very bright. He's also a Geordie lad and a good laugh!

Lolli

[quote=Pixie J. King]I think there's a difference between spoken language and written language. [/quote]


You're absolutely right.Pix. There is a difference between spoken and written English. Spoken English is much less formal - that's why some people have trouble writing dialogue, because they're writing,so they make it formal, but it has to 'say'.

As for 'try to' or 'try and' I instinctively feel that 'try to' is more correct. Rosalie's suggestion to use 'try and' if there is another 'to' nearby is sound.

SilentTony

Jenny that's brilliant. And Geordies are generally quick witted too. Also I think the fact he spent time in the toy cupboard rather than learning about some other nonsense was a cunning plan and a better education.

I had something similar, though in secondary school (R.C) when I questioned the biology teacher how she could teach us about evolution straight after daily morning mass. To be fair she equated the whole Bible in terms of Darwin's theory so well in great detail to every single follow up question that I asked that I applauded her and the class followed. I then told her as the bell rang that my plan avoid our biology test worked. She was a good sport and laughed it off, with double homework just for me though.

DeneBebbo

[quote=Jenny]Our younger daughter's boyfriend was banned from religious education lessons. One day the teacher talked about creationism and the Earth. He said "What about the Big Bang?" (he used to watch The Sky at Night with his grandfather) and that was it. His mother was called in to the school and told he would no longer be allowed to attend the lessons. He was six.[/quote]

Glad it worked out for him in the end. IMHO teachers who talk about creationism positively, even in RE class, should be sent home and told not to come back!

SilentTony

[quote=DeneBebbo]IMHO teachers who talk about creationism positively, even in RE class, should be sent home and told not to come back![/quote]

Agreed.

Jamie

I've been wondering about this recently too. I always use 'try and' in speech, but on paper it reads like the sort of thing that grammar fiends might consider uncouth - or should that be 'may consider'? :D

For the record, I have decided to ignore these theoretical grammar fiends.

Betsie

definitely try to

There is also a rule for the use of might and may

Jamie

Another thing I forgot to mention - I find that if I write something like 'Bobby-Joe had to try to shovel the shrimp', it reads awkwardly because of the two 'to's so close together. 'Bobby-Joe had to try and shovel the shrimp' scans better, in my opinion.

dorothyd

with an ever changing, ever evolving language, with new words being created and coming into common use, the best thing for writers is to go with what feels and looks right for their work. There is a place for rules - they do not necessarily make for easy reading or writing, do they?

SilentTony

[quote=dorothyd]the best thing for writers is to go with what feels and looks right for their work.[/quote]

Great advice Dorothy.

dorothyd

this is an extreme example but - if I was over-conscious of rules, I could not have started my latest story like this:

Did not ask come. Did not want come. Do not like here. Do not like people. Do not like planet. Air heavy -- make sick. Ship damaged. Cannot go home. No ship come for me. Need own food. Food here make sick. Do not like language. Words hurt. Need something stop words come me.

Dwight

Are you inviting criticism, Dorothy :) ?

[quote=Jamie] 'Bobby-Joe had to try and shovel the shrimp' [/quote]

I make no apology for differing from the opinion of others on this one, Jamie: I think this version sounds common. Is there another way to avoid two 'tos'?

Jenny

"had to try shovelling the shrimp"?

SilentTony

It's the 'had to try' bit that juts. It sounds clumsy to me. If the sentence was, 'Bobby-Joe had to try to shovel the shrimp down before Betty returned.' Then there are a lot of ways to improve it.

Bobby-Joe tried shovelling the shrimp down before Betty returned.
or
Bobby-Joe forced himself to shovel down the shrimp before Betty returned.
or
Bobby-Joe became a vegetarian before Betty returned so didn't need to shovel any shrimp down .

I prefer the last one lol.

collide-o-scope

[quote=Jamie]'Bobby-Joe had to try and shovel the shrimp' [/quote]

Bobby-Joe is doing two things here then. He is trying and he is shovelling shrimp.

In other words...

Bobby-Joe was forced into making an effort and shovelling the shrimp

Jenny

Is this shovel as in eat - or is he using a spade? ;)

collide-o-scope

Oddly enough only last night I came across a passage in the book I am reading where the word 'shovel' is used for prison.

"I've never seen my old man even once that I can remember. He's either been in the shovel or on the trot and I only know what he looks like 'cos a copper showed me his picture in the Hue & Cry."

I assume this is rhyming slang - shovel and pick - nick.

dorothyd

Dwight, no! the story is done, dusted, dictated by spirit author and was used only as an example of how work should not be dictated to by rules.

Summer Solstice

The spirit author was an alien :-O ? Or was it a deceased author having a go at sci-fi? I'm intrigued.

dorothyd

the spirit author is a horror writer, SS.this one is quite nasty, having said that, it isn't as nasty as the one I just entered for Lily's Friday Prediction ... which I wrote tonight!

Jamie

[quote=Jenny]Is this shovel as in eat - or is he using a spade? ;)[/quote]

I imagined him using a spade! I'm also amused and delighted that Bobby-Joe and his shrimp-shovel have now been used repeatedly in a semi-serious argument! :D

Summer Solstice

[quote=dorothyd]the spirit author is a horror writer, SS.this one is quite nasty[/quote]

Is the story going to be published somewhere?

dorothyd

I sent it to Thrillers Chillers N Killers, awaiting an editorial decision on it at the moment.
It's called The Blood Makes Me Whole.