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Just a few quick comments from a practising Roman Catholic Christian, re. Stan's earlier comments:
"According to Roman Catholic theology, limbo is the place for unbaptised babies. As Marc says, according to RC theology, purgatory is the waiting room to heaven where your sins are purged. There's no mention of purgatory or limbo in the Bible."
(1) Limbo was a medieval concept, arrived at by theologians wrestling with the dilemma of a merciful God who yet required repentance and conversion from believers. The question was basically, so what happens to those who die too young to have been given the chance to repent and convert? As far as I'm aware there is nothing formally recorded in the Bible as to the mechanics of how God's mercy is supposed to operate in these circumstances. A modern, non-fundamentalist Christian would be most likely just to say that in these cases we can't answer for those who have gone before us, but just have to trust in God's mercy. As a result, Limbo is officially no longer a part of Catholic teaching. Pope Benedict XVI explicitly repudiated the concept in 2006.
(2) I don't think it is correct to say that there is no Biblical evidence of purgatory. The discussions of the end-times in the New Testament make references in many places to the dead being "asleep" until the Second Coming of Christ. Hebrews and 1 Peter both talk about the souls of those who died before Christ's crucifixion, who were in waiting for the redemptive moment they were promised, and there is a famous "Purgatorial passage" in (I think) 1 Corinthians which touches on the manner in which Christian believers are called to account for their deeds. But none of these things are explicit. So church traditions and (eventually) doctrinal beliefs arose, after years of prayer and discussion among Christian theologians, to give interpretation to these scriptures. Some of those traditions and ideas have long since been abandoned by one branch or another of the Christian church; others have persisted, presumably because Christian leaders have felt that there is valuable truth and/or insight in them.
One of the important ideas in the Christian concept of purgatory was that it was a way of addressing a dichotomy in Christian teaching. On the one hand, Christian theology is quite clear that there is no way to earn salvation by one's own efforts. If we try to follow laws and rules, we will all slip up sometime or other. So the only way to salvation, in Christian teaching, is through faith. However, Christian theology is equally clear in its belief that all human beings will be judged for what they have done (and failed to do). Jesus' teachings, as recorded in the Gospels, cover both these aspects, although with a different emphasis on different occasions. So Purgatory was a sort of theological way to rationalise the fact that, although the Christian soul was ultimately saved, a part of that salvation included an accounting for all the wrongs done on the way.
That's a simplistic account. Different church traditions have developed these ideas in different ways: a modern Catholic understanding of purgatory is different from a 19th-century or a 5th-century understanding. The Eastern Orthodox churches have a different understanding again, while the evangelical churches have largely rejected the idea. You'll probably find a lot of ideas for how to develop your novel's own purgatory by reading around the different theological ideas that have been around. And don't neglect literature either: Tolkien's "Leaf by Niggle" and Newman's "The Dream of Gerontius" are two beautiful pieces of writing influenced by different ideas about purgatory. Sometimes poetry speaks more eloquently than theology on such things!
As a Catholic who has been in the situation of having had a baby die just before birth, and having a ceremony in church and a burial for my son Zack, this process was done to give him entry into heaven because he could not repent of his sins, as he'd not lived to commit any.
At the graveside we and the priest said a number of Hail Mary's for him.
None of the biblical passages sometimes quoted to support purgatory clearly teach this doctrine. As said previously, they are certainly not explicit. What is clear from the teaching of Jesus and his apostles is that acceptance with God and entrance into heaven, is not through human merit or good deeds but through Jesus Christ alone. He died to take the sins, and God's wrath against those sins, of all who repent, when he died on the cross. God declares the penitent not guilty because he declared his own Son guilty in our place when he died on the cross. (If you want to know how I understand the Scriptures cited above then email me through Webbo's system).
Sorry Carol, to hear of the death of your son Zack. I conducted the funeral for my brother's baby, Kyle, several years ago. Geoff, a non-church-goer wanted me to take the service. It was especially difficult because I was a member of the bereaved family. I spoke of Jesus as the Friend of children and we sang a lovely hymn on that theme.
I have the idea and I have written some stuff, but it's the whole presentation of the thing that is bugging me.
How to convey purgatory in the manner of a short story is prooving difficult. Any ideas, or help would be gratefully accepted. I reckon I can pull it off, but my subconcious, where all my ideas fester, is having a hard time of it.
My memories of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress are somewhat purgatorial: it was a hard read, many years ago. The only remaining feeling I have from the story is one of incessant and circular trudging, as if walking on some diabolical mobius strip until you finaly realise which way the real gravity is pulling you.
(I'm in a vague mood...soz. The Wiki-thingy entry on the said book may send you on a tangent?)
The Pilgrim's Progress is one of my favourite books. True, the 17th century English is difficult. There are modern English editions and children's editions which make for easier reading. I've often taken visitors to see the Bunyan sites here in Bedfordshire. In May, I'm giving a talk for our history society on Bunyan and his famous book. I hope the hearers won't think that my lecture is like purgatory!
Thank you all for your help above, I think the problem is that I have momentarily lost inspiration, which has not been a problem previously. I refuse to call it writers block. So Hickey, thank you for your help and I will read through what people have written with a fine tooth comb and will be fine.
Stan: I agree, none of the aforementioned scriptures ARE explicit - hence the plethora of different interpretations at different eras and among different denominations. I forgot to add that there's more on this subject in the Deutero-Canonical scriptures (the later books associated with the Old Testament, originally written in Greek, which were rejected as part of the canon of scripture by the post-Reformation churches but which are still recognised by the Catholic and Orthodox churches).
Carol, and Stan: I feel for you both with your different experiences of loss. How good for your families that there were supportive and understanding Christian ministers on hand (that includes you, Stan!) at such a sad time for all.
Robin: really pleased to hear the story has got going again. I hope we haven't confused you too much with all this waffle!
Something which might help: Catholics don't talk so much about purgatory these days, but when they do they usually speak of it as something merciful, rather than as a punishment. This is certainly the angle used in the stories/poems mentioned above. I've heard people speak about it (non-doctrinally, I hasten to add!) as a means by which you get to see your mistakes being redeemed. I've also heard people suggest that some (or all!) of our purgatory may take place while we are still alive. The notion is that it's a state of being, rather than a place, and that purgatory is an individual thing, to be outworked for each person in a way that's appropriate to them.
Don't know if any of these thoughts are helpful but I offer them with my best wishes for the story! I like your central idea, and think you could build something really successful around it.
this is seriously interesting. I always thought that purgatory was hell or at least a step before it. still you live and learn!
i love the sound of your story, i wrote something simular myself. i found it easier when writing it (i did it by hand then) to use a different colour pen for the dead person (of course the others involved were still alive - unlike your characters).
i may have missed something but am i right in saying that all the people are dead? then one of the dead people can see the other dead ones but for some reason they cant seem him? if this is the case then you have 3 dimensions the real world the dead world and purgatory. no problem with that, sounds good - just keep reading it out to yourself like a script the characters should interupt each other with the right timing then.
Hi Carol, I am just rereading the comments made in this thread and yours made me think about how Im going to present the story. And placing myself in the mind of a reader you are absolutely right that they wouldn't want to read purely disjointed dialogue.
It is not an easy idea to convey in a short story, unlike the recent story I did about an imaginary friend, from the perspective of the imaginary friend, in 1000 words, which was quite simple.
But life wouldn't be life without a challenge, right? Now I have to carrying on reading this thread, for which I am very grateful for the comments and info provided.
Comments
"According to Roman Catholic theology, limbo is the place for unbaptised babies. As Marc says, according to RC theology, purgatory is the waiting room to heaven where your sins are purged. There's no mention of purgatory or limbo in the Bible."
(1) Limbo was a medieval concept, arrived at by theologians wrestling with the dilemma of a merciful God who yet required repentance and conversion from believers. The question was basically, so what happens to those who die too young to have been given the chance to repent and convert? As far as I'm aware there is nothing formally recorded in the Bible as to the mechanics of how God's mercy is supposed to operate in these circumstances. A modern, non-fundamentalist Christian would be most likely just to say that in these cases we can't answer for those who have gone before us, but just have to trust in God's mercy. As a result, Limbo is officially no longer a part of Catholic teaching. Pope Benedict XVI explicitly repudiated the concept in 2006.
(2) I don't think it is correct to say that there is no Biblical evidence of purgatory. The discussions of the end-times in the New Testament make references in many places to the dead being "asleep" until the Second Coming of Christ. Hebrews and 1 Peter both talk about the souls of those who died before Christ's crucifixion, who were in waiting for the redemptive moment they were promised, and there is a famous "Purgatorial passage" in (I think) 1 Corinthians which touches on the manner in which Christian believers are called to account for their deeds. But none of these things are explicit. So church traditions and (eventually) doctrinal beliefs arose, after years of prayer and discussion among Christian theologians, to give interpretation to these scriptures. Some of those traditions and ideas have long since been abandoned by one branch or another of the Christian church; others have persisted, presumably because Christian leaders have felt that there is valuable truth and/or insight in them.
One of the important ideas in the Christian concept of purgatory was that it was a way of addressing a dichotomy in Christian teaching. On the one hand, Christian theology is quite clear that there is no way to earn salvation by one's own efforts. If we try to follow laws and rules, we will all slip up sometime or other. So the only way to salvation, in Christian teaching, is through faith. However, Christian theology is equally clear in its belief that all human beings will be judged for what they have done (and failed to do). Jesus' teachings, as recorded in the Gospels, cover both these aspects, although with a different emphasis on different occasions. So Purgatory was a sort of theological way to rationalise the fact that, although the Christian soul was ultimately saved, a part of that salvation included an accounting for all the wrongs done on the way.
That's a simplistic account. Different church traditions have developed these ideas in different ways: a modern Catholic understanding of purgatory is different from a 19th-century or a 5th-century understanding. The Eastern Orthodox churches have a different understanding again, while the evangelical churches have largely rejected the idea. You'll probably find a lot of ideas for how to develop your novel's own purgatory by reading around the different theological ideas that have been around. And don't neglect literature either: Tolkien's "Leaf by Niggle" and Newman's "The Dream of Gerontius" are two beautiful pieces of writing influenced by different ideas about purgatory. Sometimes poetry speaks more eloquently than theology on such things!
At the graveside we and the priest said a number of Hail Mary's for him.
How to convey purgatory in the manner of a short story is prooving difficult. Any ideas, or help would be gratefully accepted. I reckon I can pull it off, but my subconcious, where all my ideas fester, is having a hard time of it.
(I'm in a vague mood...soz. The Wiki-thingy entry on the said book may send you on a tangent?)
Stan: I agree, none of the aforementioned scriptures ARE explicit - hence the plethora of different interpretations at different eras and among different denominations. I forgot to add that there's more on this subject in the Deutero-Canonical scriptures (the later books associated with the Old Testament, originally written in Greek, which were rejected as part of the canon of scripture by the post-Reformation churches but which are still recognised by the Catholic and Orthodox churches).
Carol, and Stan: I feel for you both with your different experiences of loss. How good for your families that there were supportive and understanding Christian ministers on hand (that includes you, Stan!) at such a sad time for all.
Robin: really pleased to hear the story has got going again. I hope we haven't confused you too much with all this waffle!
Something which might help: Catholics don't talk so much about purgatory these days, but when they do they usually speak of it as something merciful, rather than as a punishment. This is certainly the angle used in the stories/poems mentioned above. I've heard people speak about it (non-doctrinally, I hasten to add!) as a means by which you get to see your mistakes being redeemed. I've also heard people suggest that some (or all!) of our purgatory may take place while we are still alive. The notion is that it's a state of being, rather than a place, and that purgatory is an individual thing, to be outworked for each person in a way that's appropriate to them.
Don't know if any of these thoughts are helpful but I offer them with my best wishes for the story! I like your central idea, and think you could build something really successful around it.
i love the sound of your story, i wrote something simular myself. i found it easier when writing it (i did it by hand then) to use a different colour pen for the dead person (of course the others involved were still alive - unlike your characters).
i may have missed something but am i right in saying that all the people are dead? then one of the dead people can see the other dead ones but for some reason they cant seem him? if this is the case then you have 3 dimensions the real world the dead world and purgatory. no problem with that, sounds good - just keep reading it out to yourself like a script the characters should interupt each other with the right timing then.
It is not an easy idea to convey in a short story, unlike the recent story I did about an imaginary friend, from the perspective of the imaginary friend, in 1000 words, which was quite simple.
But life wouldn't be life without a challenge, right? Now I have to carrying on reading this thread, for which I am very grateful for the comments and info provided.
And as you'll find we all like to help each other when we can.
Now there is the sign of a real addict.