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My son is gay as a maypole, gorgeously camp and wildly accepted down in Brighton where he lives and studies at the Uni.
No wonder he wants to stay down there, where he feels comfortable and at home, if what you're saying about the docu is that some people (many people?) still have problems about others' sexuality. I say (and I could swear with a four letter word here but as it's WN I won't) blow them!!
Rupert's a real sweetie, has loads of friends of all colours, persuasions and sexes and bl**dy good luck to him. He's a lovely bloke and that's what people remember. My bloke, the drag-racing race-engine-builder couldn't be less gay yet he and Ru get on like the proverbial.
I thought that Paul might object to Ru at first, coming from such a testosterone-fuelled world and life - then they met and for one thing discovered they both genuinely liked each other, for another they both had a love of looking for hours round antique shops. Dragged me round the Lanes in Brighton for ages.
They really do look like the odd couple now when they are together - and love each other to bits.
I'll never forget when Ru came out to me as gay. I wasn't for one thing the least bit surprised, knowing my son well. Secondly, Ru's own dad buried his head in the sand about it being of the upper-class Winchester/Oxford type who'd gone through all that at school but no way wanted to look at it in his own son.
S*d what anyone else thinks, is my message to anyone gay. And I don't think anyone knows what the so-called God might think. How can they possibly know? Have they the arrogance to assume they are the only ones with a direct line?
We all have a direct line ... and I'm Buddhist.
I saw clips of the programme advertising it, but didn't see it.
Everyone has a right to their own viewpoint, and to live their lives as they believe. Gay- so what! It's how that person was made. There've been gays for centuries, and fortunately we are now enlightened enough not to execute them, or as in the 20th century, put them in prison.
For one thing, I dont consider myself to be a fag as thats a term used for gay men, and Im a lesbian. I dont really like to use the word gay for myself either. I prefer lesbian or dyke, and if someone was to ask me for a technical medical definition I might say Im bisexual rather than homosexual. Id rather not because Id rather use a word that didnt have the word sex in it, as thats not the definition of my life. Also saying Im bisexual makes men think that they might stand a chance and Im in a monogamous relationship. But then saying Im not bisexual is lying because if I look at my life over all and my behaviour, then I would have to say that I am bisexual. Most of the time I just think that its no-one elses business! Certainly not people I dont know and have no connection to. I hate being put into a category about anything, whether its the colour of my hair (Im blonde) or being female, or the question of whether Im English or Welsh, whatever category you come up with to stick me in Ill find an argument as to why I shouldnt be in it. Even human, because I was a cat in a previous existence.
I wrote an article about this whole categorisation thing in Velvet magazine last year. Its available online here:
<a href=http://www.planetsappho.com/lesbian-writing/bisexuals-join-the-party.html target=_blank>http://www.planetsappho.com/lesbian-writing/bisexuals-join-the-party.html</a>
and very gullible.
It is true about being defined by sexuality too. I'm a man and that is that. Though if I had boyfriends instead of girlfriends (not that I can remember what that was like) I would be gay. I can't remember hearing anybody I know say "Oh I'll have to introduce you to my hetro mate, he's great." It's just mate. The reason I was so angered about this is because I had an argument/debate with somebody two weeks ago about the same thing and it shocked me that there was still this awful objection in our society. The thing that angered me was after all the intelligent debate between us she obviously had no recourse and simply said "well no matter what it's still a sin to god". I was blown away by that.
I know there's free speech, but I think some of the adult protesters should have been put in jail. On the other hand, I feel quite sorry for the young girls' and their fate - they don't really live, just exist.
I must be having a bad day - forgive my aberrant apostrophe, but I started to write girls' fate and then inserted a couple of words in between! This and typing 49 for nine fives - it's time I went to bed, I think!
My belief is that 'God' is the energy source that we started from and where we return. The same energy that flows through everyone of us.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega".
They believe that the soldiers died because the USA allows homosexuality, and God is thus punishing the US army.
Don't look for the logic in this - I'm pretty sure there isn't any.
It's difficult to add to such an emotive discussion without risking offense - but - I don't believe in God so what he threatens to do to me if I don't accept or condone homosexuality doesn't really worry me too much.
Doesn't it make you sad that some system, somehwhere, has failed this family in a disastrous way? I don't think I could feel angry with them, I think I pity them for their lack of open-mindedness and for their blinkered view of what I perceive to be a wonderful world in all its colourful diversity.
I think that judging by the film the only system that has let them down is their pastor Gramps. They seem to be a very privileged family. Good education, jobs etc. So it does seem to be a strange way to live.
"Like it or not, God appeared on earth as Jesus Christ."
That is not a fact but a belief. People cannot inflict a story they hold through faith onto others as the truth. I could easily say; like it or not the whole of the bible is a load of old fairy tales.
Having just put myself in a box, I want to say how much I hate labels! Most tendencies, of whatever kind, are mostly on scales, aren't they? At what point does anyone become homosexual, or even bisexual? I know I have a "feminine" side as much as a "masculine" side (for want of better words). There are men I think are wonderful and women I find it hard to get on with. So are these labels only associated with sexual attraction? I'd even go so far as to say where, on the sliding scale, does a sexual relationship begin and end? Is it only penetrative activity? Is it restricted to certain organs? Hmmmm I'll just say that once you get rid of the labels it just doesn't matter. It's people that matter. Full stop.
(JH- I haven't read yor article yet, but I will.)
I guess that is where a lot of people miss the point. Ok I may be speaking out of turn here as I am not gay, but surely gay, straight etc is all defined by who you love. Yes sex is a large part of it but you can be gay or straight and be celibate so that shows it is more than sex. We have sex with people we love or feel for. Yes I know sometimes for fun or whatever. But at the end of it all sexuality is really loveuality. Labels are not great but hey we have them, as long as we don't twist them or use them to separate then fine.
I class myself as straight not only because I am only attracted to women, but KNOW I could never have a LOVING relationship with a man. This is why homophobes and bigots bug me so much. All they are doing is saying that love is wrong.
So what's in the Bible is concrete fact, is it? I think not. Let me get one thing straight. Religion is belief. There is nothing on this planet that will convince me that men are more important than women (where you have a father you must have a mother). Therefore the whole God the Father thing just doesn't cut any ice with me. I'm no feminist, as I don't believe one is more important than the other, full stop. We have to have both in order to survive.
I'm sorry if what I'm going to say offends anyone, as that's not my intention, but I do not believe in God, and there is nothing that p***es me off more than people trying to force their beliefs down my bloody throat. I will not have it.
As for the original topic of this thread - gay, straight, somewhere in-between or undecided makes absolutely no difference to who we are. I have gay and lesbian friends, I have straight friends, I have French friends, British friends, Spanish friends ... blah-bloody-blah, makes no difference, and I will always be very happy to p*** on anyone who tries to tell me otherwise. It won't wash.
I'm sure all here, whatever our beliefs or un- belief (for want of a better term) and however strongly we feel would not try to force those beliefs onto anyone else.
Perhaps this is another one of those topics that should now fade.
Something switched on inside me to tell me that it is indeed true and possible.I would say that was in spite of the established Churches not thanks to them.So many churches of religion twist the love and purity that is their foundation to suit the politics of the churches and that is just sad.
We have to seek and search , make our own mind up and then feel what we feel.That can either be faith or nothing. C.S. Lewis wrote some outstanding books on the subject.
Some of my own best friends are Muslim and we have some great conversations and learn a lot from each other with mutual respect and love for example.Apologies if that seems off the point.It is the mutual love,respect and understanding I am attempting (poorly)to convey.
This is a fascinating thread and I must say it speaks so well of this forum and the people that such a sensitive matter as this can be discussed sensibly and with compassion with what seems to me as an overall view of simple fairness and respect for each other.
As for the actual and original point . My thinking for anyone interested ,wither you believe Jesus was who he said he was, or that he was a prophet , or was a teacher, or dont believe he was anything at all , the fact remains that his legacy of teaching is simply Love each other.
There is no place in his teaching for hatred or harm to anyone.
If anyone says that he said otherwise they have never read what he is actually reported to have said by the journalists of the time.I dont see it as that complicated. Love everyone.
Thanks this was very very interesting.
Aegean
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I have my own beliefs, but I won't go into them here because I don't feel like adding that to this discussion as it's irrelevant. What is relevant is that Aegean is right; what matters is that we respect each other (love, I feel, is a trifle strong, considering what some people are capable of). Respect goes a long way.
Hiya. I have just read your article. It is the most honest piece I have read in a long time.
I have a woman friend (I properly mean friend) of over twenty years who has had similar experience to the division you describe on many occassions within her own rights group especially when she was younger.As you say (if I read the article right)often people who profess individuality and rights have themselves very low tolerance of anyone even slightly outwith their own perception of acceptable.
If anyone has not read the article you will find it will stimulate the little grey cells.
Josie , do not consider a career in politics Your writing is too honest *S*
Seriously, very good.
As for love itself being a trifle strong, probably. Perhaps better described as to me it was the instruction and is therefore the goal.Although I fail badly, more than most,love for all must remain the goal as from love the branches of tolerance, respect, compassion and so much more grow.
Wow ... I do not think I have ever seen this anywere on a forum before ,religion and politics mentioned on the same thread and nobody has yelled out anyoneso far. No wonder they call us a worship of writers :-) We are doing ok.
Very impressed.
Aegean
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Religion/belief is an emotive and contentious subject.
We believe or don't believe. It does not give anyone the right (in any level of society) to say their beliefs are better or more just. Look how much trouble has been caused over the centuries and in different countries because of religion.
I accept that some believe and some don't- and that is okay with me.
As for the original topic, it does make me wonder when I hear a sentence that begins God hates because it seems to be a contradiction in terms. God doesnt hate. Full stop. Im not a Christian, Im pagan but I was brought up in a semi-Christian household and went to church as a child. I do believe that Jesus was a real person, but I also believe that if he knew what had happened in his name over the last two thousand years hed be very sorry. I have also read the Judas Gospel and thats an eye-opener for everyone who is even remotely interested in theology and the politics of a theocracy.
i will probably be one of the first to put their hand up and admit the Church has screwed PLENTY of times over the past years.
people who use things like a person's sexual preference against them and slanders them, and generally destroys them are horrible. i can't stand people who judge. iam very aware that sometimes i too am a bit hasty in deciding whether i like a person or not, but im a human, not a saint, as is everyone.
OK, it takes a man and a woman to make a child, but that isn't the sole purpose of love. We are all human (well, there are exceptions, I grant you), and love is relative.
I love my other half with passion, and I also love my best friend, because she's a wonderful person. In the end, isn't that all that counts?
I was born Jewish, christened Catholic, married in the Church of England, attended, at various times, services in Methodist, Baptist, Vineyard Churches or just prayed at home occasionally. I believe in one God, by whatever name he's known, and also in Jesus. Although nowadays I don't go to church very much - occaasionally to an Anglican church with our grandsons or a Vineyard church with daughter, but try to behave as a Christian, yet some people say you can't be a Christian if you don't go to church every Sunday.
I caught the tail end of the Louis Theroux documentary and I concur with what everybody else has said about it. One thing I will add, though, is the great sense of sadness I had at the end, that there will be people watching the documentary and assuming that these guys are representative of Christianity as a whole. They are not. They are one, pretty much self-propagating sect - they have a loose affiliation to the Baptist church, but their pastor appears to have set himself up as an absolute authority subject to nothing but (his own reading of) the Bible. I have no doubt that they believe they are sincere. I give them grudging respect for not buying into the warped version of evangelical Christianity that George W. has used to try and justify the Iraq war (even though they've used another seemingly equally warped version in its place). But I find it impossible to accept that by their actions they are doing the work of God or witnessing to the existence of a God of love. There was not a single quote from the New Testament (the words of Jesus or his followers) used to back up any of their actions.
I am a Christian, proud of it, and proud to say that I believe and follow the Bible. I have also for many years been a member of the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement (www.lgcm.org.uk). I reside fairly comfortably somewhere near the hetero end of the Kinsey scale, but have a number of Christian friends who would identify themselves as gay, lesbian or bisexual. This includes some who are now in faithful, long-term, same-sex relationships and it has been a pleasure to celebrate those relationships with them.
I don't believe one can choose to be gay. But accepting Jesus as God and living a life in accordance with his teachings IS a choice, and my gay friends who have chosen to be Christians have also had to reconcile their lives with some stern pronouncements in the Bible, in the history and practice of the churches to which they belong, and in society. Not one of them has chosen to ignore the difficult scriptures that CH mentions, rather they have engaged with those texts (often, wrestled with them) and eventually found peace with themselves and their beliefs. The reading of these difficult scriptures has so often been coloured by social convention and political expediency that they are not quite the simple condemnation of all things non-hetero that most fundamentalists (and, sadly, some traditional orthodox Christians) assume them to be. The LCGM has a section on its website headed "But the Bible..." which looks at these passages in detail, for those who are interested.
So, it always irks and saddens me when a group can make a pronouncement like "God Hates Fags" and it is seen to be an absolute representation of Christianity. The God I believe I know was not into hate.
I suspect this debate has probably run its course now, but if anyone would like to ask me anything further on this, please feel free to drop me a private email.
I thought that I should post this link as it is drawing to a close. If anyone ever wants to know anything about the Christian aspect of faith and get the hard to get answers or at least be in an enviroment where you can ask them without feeling out there and basically make your own mind up , I just have to suggest attending an alpha course. Costs nothing ,at the least very stimulating, usually good people to meet and sure to be one running wherever you are.
I am a little reluctant to make this actual post as I am not sure if everyone will approve. If anyone doesn't sorry. No offence is meant to anyone. I have simply seen alpha course help so many people in so many ways and allow thousands of people to experience answers they never thought would happen. It changed my life.
link is.
http://alpha.org/default.asp
In every situation I have known it each course is led by ordinary folk.Occasionaly a Minister,Vicar or Priest but not that often as that can be more off putting than a help to be blunt as it is all geared to people making their own mind up .
It was televised on ITV a couple of years ago following a pretty average bunch of people following the course each week and how they felt at the start, each week and at the end. Some changed views, some didn't. It was hosted by Sir David Frost and was a pretty fair representation of what alpha course was/is.
It is VERY much about what the people attending feel,think and what they want to discuss.The DVD is a talk by Nicky Gumble that lasts about 30 minutes and each talk is about a differant discussion point based on Christianity. It is geared to discuss and experience for yourself where or if possible I would say. It is very much interactive, not just sitting being preached at or to.
I have seen men and women disagree with every single discussion on every week of the course, but still enjoy it and still come along each week.I think that is why I stuck with it.
Usually runs for about 11 weeks and each meeting is about 90 minutes to a couple of hours including a bite to eat and then tea/coffee etc, to allow time for relaxed get to know each other and chats in an very informal way also.
Sometimes an "alpha course" in a town or city is linked to a mainstream church, like Church of Scotland, Catholic Church, Church of England etc (all support alpha course as far as I know).At the conference I went to the leaders of all the main Scottish mainstream Churches spoke in support which was something in itself.
Sometimes they are just organised by independednt people who want to share something that has made their life better. The alpha course has been very succesful in prisons also and the courses running in prisons has grown in an major way.Sometimes at the least it can help people dump the garbage hurts and pains from their past, if that is all it does then is something in itself.I can only tell you how I have found it from a personal point and I have done my very best to be as honest as I can here.If it hadn't really helped my life and my wife's ,I would never have mentioned it.As simply I would love it to help somebody else in the same way too.
Alpha course mainly in terms of resources provide the discussion DVD and accompanying journal where you can make your own notes on what you think.Other than that they basically only supply the posters , invites etc to get it organised. They have published some books also, most by Nicky Gumble who takes a wage only not a royalty which I thought was interesting.The profit from the book sales helps to provide resource materials where no funds are available for them. Nicky is a former barrister and was previously a convinced aethiest.He is now an ordained vicar at Holy Trinity ,Brompton. I have met Nicky and again I can only say I found him to be as sound as pound and a real nice guy.
There probably does exist worrying reports and the likes about alpha course as there does with anything that challenges or is succesful, but I can only speak from my own experience and say I found it to be fascinating and a great way to learn and experience what I just could not get or understand previously. I did not find it pushy in any way at all and ,to me anyway, it did not skirt issues like what about other religions etc or aspects of the Christian faith that I had previously not a clue about. It was challenging and sometimes the discussion parts could be pretty heated but it was always stimulating. I also liked the fact that I have never known anyone asked to not come back because of their own views or beliefs. It was interesting to hear other peoples views. If it had all been preached at me it would not have worked out for me personally.I do not mean that to criticise Church or Ministers it was just the way I was at the time. I do not know what else I can really tell you about it.This is just my view of it, there may well be aspects I have missed or maybe even I am wrong about , but it is just a report on how I have found it to be.
I have no official link with them, I don't work for them, I just help organise some of the courses in our area as I am an elder with Church of Scotland now and we help find venues etc.
Only training is a conference once a year at which there are seminars which give you basic guidance for potential or current leaders on how to keep a discussion flowing , help all to put their views over without ridicule, how to help guide people to get in touch with people or organisations who can help them professionaly who may come along with underlying problems such as alcoholism, drug addiction etc. Alpha course organisers/leaders do not council people who indicate they have a problem in such areas (unless that happens to be their job) but they try to show the basics of how to help folk link up with organisations who can help them and these are often outwith any chuch link, whichever is most appropriate. There is some guidance for leaders on how to speak with people who have been bereaved as obviously ,you want to to help hurting people not say anything that would do the opposite. That is basically what happens at the training or conference. Their is specific seminars usually on youth work, prison group organisation,etc. Sometimes alpha courses may be organised for women only if it is requested , as often there can be hurting women who just want to discuss matters in a female enviroment. Again I have no idea if alpha course officially approve or disaprove of that but if it is the right thing to help people that has been organised too.Genrally the courses are a mixed group though.
If I can help provide any answers about it please email me at anytime. I am not sure how you access my email via the forum, if you have any problem finding it or if I have not made it available just let me know and I will sort it out somehow.
I do not want to bug anyone or come over as a pushy pain in the butt. I just thought if I do not try to explain what alpha course actually is then it would not help anyone. I hope thats ok with the members of the forum.
if I have bugged anyone on the group by suggesting alpha as a source to find out a bit more , I do apologise in advance. I can only asure you that is not my intention. It simply helped us in a major way. When anything does that in your life it is your instinct to want to see it help other people too as mentioned above.
Hope that is ok and that I have explained what it actually is a little.
It is always a bit scary don't you think on a forum to be involved in any discussion involving religion, politics and the like. I am just so aware I dont want to bug anyone.
I have been utterly amazed how this thread has managed to run without anyone being aggresive to anyone else, as the original issue and resulting branch issues raised are very sensitive.
I dont know what I can say other than thank you to all for listening, your tolerance, intelligence and compassion.
Hard to know wither it is nothing to do with the world of wrting as such , I just personally feel that life matters have to concern us,whatever our views as we are all scribes of today and our writing will at some point leave a legacy of what we feel. Therefore the more we know and the more questions we can have answered the better we will be able to do that.
Thanks again for all the patience here. Amazing.
Aegean
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Just when this thread seems to be ending it keeps waking up again.