Welcome to Writers Talkback. If you are a new user, your account will have to be approved manually to prevent spam. Please bear with us in the meantime
No, I agree Cooper.
It's just I can't believe that the tw word is so serious- maybe I lead a very very sheltered life, or it is just the problems of how language changes from place to place.
It's in the dictionary Carol! Are you saying a dictionary definition isn't correct? Just because you don't want it to be? Every time I think of it, I think of a friend who told me thats's how women's genitalia are referred to in men's pornography. I think of that image, and i never use it!
Jacqueline Wilson was not writing for a teenage audience here, the target audience was 10. She also writes for the 7-9 age-group, and there is some overlap, in fact many 8-9 year olds read the next stage up.
Any derogatory word, I believe, can be used so long as it is in the right context and reflects the language of the day. However, when reading a book I really don't want to read foul language. Sorry, that's just the way I am.
No, I believe you Liz, but the English language is always changing, and we will always have a problem that what a word means to one person, it can be offensive somewhere else, but something different elsewhere.
I find 'bint' derogatory, but realise to other people it isn't neccesarily. I live with it.
I obviously don't read the dictionary enough. :)
Nothing wrong with that Cooper. I think what publishers need to do is have a guidance label on the back stating that a book contains graphic violence/explicit language/sex etc.
Waterstones place Wilson on the 9-12 year old shelves.
I've always thought that when I have kids I won't let them touch my books until they were well into their teens. Although I suspect that would only make them determined to find out why they are forbidden and read them under the duvets when I'm not looking!
and on the 7-9 shelves, she writes very simple books too. How to Survive Summer Camp is for 7+ for instance and the very subject matter is for primary age children.
I can't remember where I heard it. I don't know if I read it, was told it in a lecture or came up in a text book while studying. Disturbing enough, apparently teenage girls are now calling each other these words.
[quote=LizB]"It's in the dictionary Carol! Are you saying a dictionary definition isn't correct? Just because you don't want it to be? Every time I think of it, I think of a friend who told me thats's how women's genitalia are referred to in men's pornography. I think of that image, and i never use it!" - the same dictionary points out that it is a "general term of reproach (slang)" which is how many people view the word. Many of us, and especially the readers of Ms Wilson's books, will not be familiar with the contents of male pornography but will be aware of local slang.
LizB, I accept that you don't like the word - nor do I particularly - but that does not per se make it offensive.
Hmm, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one! Because if a word sounds the same the you don't know which usage it is being used... and if your child was shouting something which was the same as a swearword, wouldn't you want them to stop?
In fact, i would never let my kids call anyone a twit either, or any derogatory term... because you aren't supposed to call people by names, but their actions, ie you should never say, 'you stupid child' you should say, 'you are a sensible child, why are you doing that stupid thing?' Because calling someone a name labels them and it can be something which sticks -separating the person from the label helps them to be able to take charge and change the behaviour. Twit AND twat are derogatory terms which no-one should have to be called.
And if they actually have the same meaning, why do people think it's ok to say one and not the other? Same with all those other so-called polite versions of swear words, like darn and blooming and so on. They're still used as curses. It looks like having your cake and eating it, to me.
Carol, I only skim-read the article last night, as I was off to work, and wrongly thought the offensive word was twit. So thanks for putting me straight.
I've read this thread with interest, and some excellent points have been made all round. However, where I've grown up I've had to become extremely streetwise and I can quite categorically state that the word twat is a very offensive word.
The C word is the only worse one (which means the same), and for the former to be in a children's book is a major boo-boo by a so-called professional writer who hasn't done her research. And, quite frankly, I'm amazed that not everybody knows this (obviously where one is raised and the circles one mixes within have a bearing).
Along with other dictionaries, the Encarta one clearly spells it out:
1. a highly offensive term for a woman's vagina or genital area (taboo)
2. U.K. a highly offensive term for somebody regarded as unintelligent, worthless, or detestable (taboo insult)
I have to wonder where you stand with the likes of Roald Dahl LizB.? He has a book about the Twits, his Father Christmas grumbles "Bloomin'" a lot - is this also offensive? Children understand these words to be general insults and are unlikely to be concerned with dictionary definitions. It is adults who "demonise" words thus making them attractive for children to repeat solely for the shock factor.
Well, blooming was an alternative to saying blimey, which actually meant 'God Blind me' which isn't very nice. And Darn, similarly, an alternative to saying damn, which was a shortening of, 'God damn you.' So in fact because they don't actually MEAN blind me, or damn you, the sting is taken from them, and you can just say them as away of venting spleen when you drop the hammer on your toes. Without wishing blindness on yourself or damnation on another. I don't even believe in God, but words do have meanings, and I would rather not use words with implications behind the meanings like that.
If you can 'not swear' in front of your parents, why do you feel the need when they aren't there?
I just went and asked son what he said in the way of swear words when I'm not around. He said when something really bad happens at school or something, he says 'shit'. Actually that word doesn't bother me, as it is a direct description of the situation he's in, and isn't pejorative about a person, nor a blasphemy. If he's with boys he says the 'F' word. He certainly doesn't use them as a matter of course, and I'm hoping he will stop when peer pressure isn't the big thing in is life! He's 15. And he's not heard it at home... so here's hoping.
When I was at school there was no swearing at all, so what has changed?
Well, quite CC. They don't understand the dictionary definitions so it's a good thing not to use them round them! I have no worries about bloomin, it means nothing, it's just a general complaint. And I don't like name calling. Do you mean the Father Christmas in Raymond Briggs' books? I haven't read 'The Twits' so I'm not sure how I feel -I'll have a look! But it's fairly inoffensive isn't it? I wouldn't want my kids calling each other twit though.
Interesting thread!
Like Carol I didn't know that that T word meant that either just thought it meant someone who was stupid.
I have a couple of swear words in my books for teens, but last week at Swanwick John Jarrold said ( yes him again) that there is no need for swear words in books. He said Eastenders never has any swearing and do you notice? No because he said the writing is so good. If your writing is good he reckons you don't need swear words.
I was looking at J Wilsons books in Smiths on Saturday and above them was a sign above saying 9-10 years of age.
I discussed the book and the woman who took the publishers to court to my children (12 & 14) on the way home from school this afternoon and when I told them that the T word had been put into print for that age group children's book, their jaws dropped open and they gasped, so they were definitely aware of its meaning.
The writing is good in Eastenders? (pardon me while I choke on my croissant!) The reason they don't swear on the soaps is because of the watershed.
I rarely swore until I worked in kitchens (lets see anyone not swear when getting burnt by a chip pan fresh from from boiling hot oil - as what happened to me recently!)
Stirling he was a speaker at Swanwick last week. From the hand book-
'Former editor and editorial director at Macdonald Futura , Random House and Simon and Schuster. He has published best selling novelists including Iain Banks, Terry Brooks, Robert Jordan, Arthur C Clark, and Michael Moorcock.'
Twit and twat are not the same word. We are all writers here and it seems to me we of all people should have respect for words and their meanings.
This sensitivity to swearing is related to age, I think. When I was younger I didn't mind a bit of swearing, it seemed daring and rebellious and I couldn't understand why my parents' generation got so steamed up about it. Now I hear my sons use words like c*nt and tw*t and I realise how demeaning it is on their lips. These words carry a weight of disrespect and aggression. They are not "just another word". Whether we use them or not we should be aware of what meaning they are conveying.
If 'twat' carried the same meaning it originally had, then it would be offensive. The fact that so many people don't even know what it originally meant tells you that it has lost its naughtiness. It's the same with 'dork' - one of the original meanings is a large penis. Now that's used freely among children and adults alike as its lost its meaning. C*nt on the other hand has not lost its meaning and is widely understood to be offensive.
Working with erotica as I do, daily, there are two words I change and discourage people from using, - one us c**t and the other is a**e simply because once they get hold of it, they do not let it go. One author, who I rejected for using it 375 times (I replaced it with a symbol and the computer told me how many times he had used it) said it was the most erotic word he knew. Limited imagination. The other word, whilst being Anglo Saxon and acceptable to some degree, is crude and erotica should not be crude.
I am surprised Jacqueline Wilson used that word in her book, really, she should have known better, or is it that after 20 million books sold she thinks she can do as she likes? Seems to be that way, best selling authors don't appear to be edited. for truthfully, her editor should have taken it out before it went to print. Where are the editors? a constant complaint of mine lately!
By the same token, Fiona, a lot of people still think of twat in the crude way so it hasn't been phased out and until it does, it would be advisable not to use it in polite company and especially not in a book that has been written with youngsters as its target audience. You were asking not that long ago for a replacement word for 'arse' for one of your children's stories as you deemed the word not acceptable for publishing in that age group. The T word is just as bad, if not far worse.
IG - I don't use the word myself because I know what it means. My argument is that Wilson might not have known what it meant or, if she did, believes that it's lost its meaning anyway. I doubt she deliberately chose an offensive word. To be honest, until this discussion I didn't realise that people still considered it a naughty word. If it is still widely considered as such, or by a significant number of readers, then I agree with you that it will be offensive and as such removed - just like the a*** word in my story. That is widely understood which is why i looked for an alternative.
I'd like to think so. I've read a lot of her books for my writing for children class and I think she's a great writer. The Illustrated Mum is a stunning book.
I agree with Stirling on the realism front. I want to portray the real world and the real world uses swear words, especially certain characters. I'm in two minds about the Wilson thing though... it is different when its a children's books and I have heard that readership (in magazines at least) tends to be three years younger than the target audience.
That's right Emma. Children's books tend to be banded in 3 - 4 year groupings. A rule of thumb for a children's writer is to pitch your protagonist at the top end of the age range - it's aspirational. So if Wilson is writing for the 8 - 11 age group there can be children as young as seven reading the 'language' of an eleven year old.
Comments
It's just I can't believe that the tw word is so serious- maybe I lead a very very sheltered life, or it is just the problems of how language changes from place to place.
I don't swear a lot. It depends on the character and only ever in dialogue when a character is being pushed to the brink.
Are we talking Literature or literary fiction?
If men want to read that kind of material that is up to them. It's just not in my sphere.
I find 'bint' derogatory, but realise to other people it isn't neccesarily. I live with it.
I obviously don't read the dictionary enough. :)
Waterstones place Wilson on the 9-12 year old shelves.
I can't remember where I heard it. I don't know if I read it, was told it in a lecture or came up in a text book while studying. Disturbing enough, apparently teenage girls are now calling each other these words.
LizB, I accept that you don't like the word - nor do I particularly - but that does not per se make it offensive.
I don't find Wilson to have much growth in her writing. It seems like she just recycles the same stories, over and over again.
In fact, i would never let my kids call anyone a twit either, or any derogatory term... because you aren't supposed to call people by names, but their actions, ie you should never say, 'you stupid child' you should say, 'you are a sensible child, why are you doing that stupid thing?' Because calling someone a name labels them and it can be something which sticks -separating the person from the label helps them to be able to take charge and change the behaviour. Twit AND twat are derogatory terms which no-one should have to be called.
My Mam and Dad have never heard me swear, but I make sure they are nowhere near when I do!
I've read this thread with interest, and some excellent points have been made all round. However, where I've grown up I've had to become extremely streetwise and I can quite categorically state that the word twat is a very offensive word.
The C word is the only worse one (which means the same), and for the former to be in a children's book is a major boo-boo by a so-called professional writer who hasn't done her research. And, quite frankly, I'm amazed that not everybody knows this (obviously where one is raised and the circles one mixes within have a bearing).
Along with other dictionaries, the Encarta one clearly spells it out:
1. a highly offensive term for a woman's vagina or genital area (taboo)
2. U.K. a highly offensive term for somebody regarded as unintelligent, worthless, or detestable (taboo insult)
Microsoft® Encarta® 2006. © 1993-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
If you can 'not swear' in front of your parents, why do you feel the need when they aren't there?
I just went and asked son what he said in the way of swear words when I'm not around. He said when something really bad happens at school or something, he says 'shit'. Actually that word doesn't bother me, as it is a direct description of the situation he's in, and isn't pejorative about a person, nor a blasphemy. If he's with boys he says the 'F' word. He certainly doesn't use them as a matter of course, and I'm hoping he will stop when peer pressure isn't the big thing in is life! He's 15. And he's not heard it at home... so here's hoping.
When I was at school there was no swearing at all, so what has changed?
Like Carol I didn't know that that T word meant that either just thought it meant someone who was stupid.
I have a couple of swear words in my books for teens, but last week at Swanwick John Jarrold said ( yes him again) that there is no need for swear words in books. He said Eastenders never has any swearing and do you notice? No because he said the writing is so good. If your writing is good he reckons you don't need swear words.
I was looking at J Wilsons books in Smiths on Saturday and above them was a sign above saying 9-10 years of age.
;)
I rarely swore until I worked in kitchens (lets see anyone not swear when getting burnt by a chip pan fresh from from boiling hot oil - as what happened to me recently!)
Question: who is John Jarrold?
'Former editor and editorial director at Macdonald Futura , Random House and Simon and Schuster. He has published best selling novelists including Iain Banks, Terry Brooks, Robert Jordan, Arthur C Clark, and Michael Moorcock.'
This sensitivity to swearing is related to age, I think. When I was younger I didn't mind a bit of swearing, it seemed daring and rebellious and I couldn't understand why my parents' generation got so steamed up about it. Now I hear my sons use words like c*nt and tw*t and I realise how demeaning it is on their lips. These words carry a weight of disrespect and aggression. They are not "just another word". Whether we use them or not we should be aware of what meaning they are conveying.
I am surprised Jacqueline Wilson used that word in her book, really, she should have known better, or is it that after 20 million books sold she thinks she can do as she likes? Seems to be that way, best selling authors don't appear to be edited. for truthfully, her editor should have taken it out before it went to print. Where are the editors? a constant complaint of mine lately!
But thanks for educating me on the 'other' definition. :)