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The infamous Muriel Belcher, founder of The Colony Room in London's Soho, a favourite with writers and artists would greet everyone, male or female, with a cheery, Hello, Cunty. I doubt she ever wrote for children though :)
Am I right in thinking that when they re-launched the Enid Blyton series 'The Magic Faraway Tree' they changed the girl's name -it was Fanny in the original?
It's too easy to let things slide until they become acceptable, isn't it. I wouldn't have even known the meaning of half the things my children see in prime time viewing hours on TV these days. I know times change and you have to go with the flow but sometimes I thing they flow too fast.
There are two ways of looking at it: either we are thankful for the loss of offence and power (when a word is stripped of its meaning) or we make a stand to clean things up. The problem is when words are already in flux, do we help or hinder the process by either ignoring it or challenging it. I'm not sure where I stand on this. Like you, IG, I don't want my children using crass language or reading it, but perhaps by making an issue of it we are giving the words back their power when they were already losing them.
'Perhaps the reason for Dame Jacqueline's failure to reply was sheer embarrassment. According to Random House sources, she was unaware of the word's reference to the female genitalia. Her dictionary, The Times was told, listed it as meaning a foolish or despicable person. '
As a child in the Seventies I remember using the word in my mother's presence (who never swears) and she didn't bat an eyelid. We used it in the sense of 'idiot' and never considered that it had an alternative meaning. I think I was about 18 before I discoverd the crasser meaning. My mother, thankfully, remains ignorant!
I had hoped the author was unaware of the real meaning and it seems she was.
You could also choose not to discuss sex or sexuality with your children and have them go through life being naive and vulnerable - an informed decision is the only one. But as with sex, you don't bombard them with information in one go. It takes years of gently dolling out the data at a level appropriate to their age, understanding and maturity. Same with language and all its connotations.
It irks me when prime time TV shows discuss sexually transmitted diseases, sexuality issues or other things that may or may not be age appropriate. It's not a matter of not informing children, but easing them into the knowledge at a time when you, as responsible guardian, deem it proper. I do agree with you when you talk about giving words a power they don't warrant but this thread was initially about slotting in an inappropriate word for the intended age group. Great discussion though and very thought-provoking. :-)
this discussion seems to have taken over from the make me a christian thread... hee...not a word on there... but this has been very interesting to see other points of view...
[quote=Fiona]There are two ways of looking at it: either we are thankful for the loss of offence and power (when a word is stripped of its meaning) or we make a stand to clean things up. The problem is when words are already in flux, do we help or hinder the process by either ignoring it or challenging it. I'm not sure where I stand on this. Like you, IG, I don't want my children using crass language or reading it, but perhaps by making an issue of it we are giving the words back their power when they were already losing them. [/quote]
My kids know most swear words out there, so do I. I will be perfectly honest and say that I really don't care, I've told them I would rather not hear them and they shouldn't use them when my mother is around, but I am not making a fuss.
As far as writing goes I had this conversation with Carol when I wanted to enter something into last months one word challenge, it had to have a certain word in it to emphasise the situation, I tried at least a dozen other words but they just didn't work.
While I think that there are some words that are possibly best not put in childrens fiction, I can't see why people still get riled about it. If we just let it go then it ultimately loses its power and slips into obscurity.
IG you tend to find that a lot of the stuff that's discussed on daytime tv just goes straight over their heads as they don't want to watch boring programmes anyway. If they do start to listen and ask questions I always try to answer them honestly. Hols had sex ed at 10 and knows quite a bit, she decided to tell me (as I think she thought I didn't know).
I just feel that the more fuss people make the more weight these things carry.[
Just been reading the article in The Times online, and there have been comments from other readers who seem to see this 'other' usage as being a southern thing, whereas to Northerners it's an offensive term.
Well, it all makes me think of what Billy Connolly said about that murderer, Rosemary West. '15 f**king corpses under her kitchen floorboards, but Rosemary didn't approve of swearing.' Say no more!!!
[quote=kateyanne]Am I right in thinking that when they re-launched the Enid Blyton series 'The Magic Faraway Tree' they changed the girl's name -it was Fanny in the original? [/quote]
That's my grandma's middle name. She hated being called that. :) Not as bad as Flora.
To be honest I was an avid reader of the dictionary when I was little. Once I found certain words I would constantly use them and tell me parents "Did you know so and so means so and so?" I would use the words whenever possible and once I found bad words I wouldn't stop using them until I found another word. I was at that questioning age. Usually when I found a bad word I would ask "Why does it mean that? Why does it have to mean that?"
The beautiful thing about language though is that words change their meanings over time.
Oooh, sorry - but I love a good argument! I know what twat means - I also happen to think it's far less offensive than the c* word, which I only use on very rare occasions among people who know me well enough to not be offended, and only then when I'm describing something someone else has either called me (as I said, only once) or said in context.
I admit I wouldn't use it in children's stories, but I'm with Neph - it doesn't really matter. Words have deep meaning, I'm absolutely convinced of that - otherwise, people wouldn't put such faith in the power of prayer and invocations. But the more we make them taboo and naughty, the more children will want to use them. As I said before, it's a simple fact that whenever people of different mother tongues get together, the first things they ask each other are what sh**, a**e or f**k are in each other's languages. It's basic human curiousity and we'll never rid ourselves of that - indeed, why would we want to? It's part of being human and, indeed, sentient.
As for EastEnders having good dialogue - I have to disagree. Emmerdale (my mum watches it, so I see it sometimes) has some good one-liners in it, but EastEnders? 'I'm gonna bloomin' deck you, mister!' is not, no matter which way you turn and twist it, realistic East End vocabulary.
We need to get this into perspective. A word only has meaning if we give it meaning. If we take that meaning away, at least until children are old enough to make up their own minds about such things, then the words are innocent and don't have as much power as they would otherwise have.
One last point - my OH always says that people are only offended if they choose to be. I have to say I agree with him.
Not sure which bit of the south you're from Liz but where I grew up (East London) I heard plenty of swearing (though not at home) - I don't think the south is immnue from it! :-)
Fiona,
I'm sorry, but since this has developed into a frank debate, I must point out that in Manchester (and, until today, I thought all over Britain), a 'dickhead' is most certainly NOT, nor ever will, 'lose its meaning.' What else on Earth could it possibly mean? And to suggest this was used on CBBC is hard to believe.
Having said that, it is extremely eye-opening to hear all these diverse views.
'Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me!' - so goes the old rhyme, but I beg to differ. Words are extremely potent; broken bones may heal in time, but often a broken spirit does not. People should choose their words with care. They can never be referred to as 'only words'. How many children and young people have been driven to mental ill-health and even suicide by the malicious use of words? Why should parents be put in the position of having to explain what such words mean to their primary age children? I once had to explain to a very tearful 6 year old of mine that he could not possibly be a f*****g b*****d, and why - surely that can't be right?
Swearing is uncouth and unnecessary, and not something that should be encouraged. I have one hell of a temper when roused, but I never swear because I don't need to. I used to enjoy watching Billy Connolly when the BBC had better language standards - he was the funniest man I have ever seen. Now I don't enjoy his act, not least because if you count them up, more than half the words he uses are swear words, and swear words, especially repeated over and over, are just not funny.
I, for one, am totally against swearing in children's books, am glad to see something has been done about it in this case, and really can't see how it got in there in the first place - even if the author was unaware of its meaning, surely there was an editor involved at some point?
What a fascinating thread! Makes me wish I had logged on a bit more recently. And talking of one-liners, some great ones here.
My son's just moved up to middle school (9-13) and when you walk down the alleyway after school in the midst of them, all you hear are swear words. So removing one mild one from one book is a drop in the ocean. All we can do as parents is try to discourage our children from using them, but we can never stop them from hearing them.
You're right, treleavenl, it is a drop in the ocean. But publishing obscenities in children's fiction sends a message that it is acceptable, which is not the same as what children say to each other in the playground.
I'm not prudish about swearing at all. In the right context it can be used very effectively, but overuse corrupts the language.
And with the publicity it has received I'm sure there will be kids looking through their copies of the book to find the words, and they probably didn't notice them the first time around.
But littering stories with expletives isn't needed, I agree.
What a fascinating thread!
I brought the topic up in a meeting today - all females. One knew the offensive meaning of the word, three considered it a swear word but didn't know the meaning, three genuinely thought it an innocuous word and one said she uses it freely in everyday speech if she thinks someone has done something daft even though she does not swear. (Interestingly the one who knew the meaning was from the South of England.;) )
I have heard the word used by children in the carelessly affectionate way of "don't be silly" - it's quite apparent that there are regional variations in acceptance and knowledge of meaning - this may be hard to accept by those who have always known the meaning but it definitely appears to be the case.
Carol- you, Jacqueline Wilson and many others were not alone :)
Rather than a regional, or North/South issue, is this thread now pointing to the circles in which we mingle and the lives of which we've led? Interesting...
No, don't think so - I learned my swear words in our council estate and worked with the homeless and in addictions - been there, heard it and thought I had heard every permutation of genitalia - well and truly inured but never heard that word beyond the playground...
I have to say I've just been truly educated reading this thread! I'll certainly be careful what I say from now on.
The thing with swear words is that most of them used to be used as common words. So what's in Shakespeare isn't swearing, it's just how they talked. I wonder what words we use now will become swear words in 500 years?
Swearing and especially the use of the f word is very common round here-Horsham Sussex. I took my granddaughter out in the push chair to the park the other day and there were these teens f-ing this f-ing that, I wanted to cover her little ears.
At the shops yesterday some middle aged guy was f-ing down his mobile phone. I just don't think it's necessary.
Comments
More on the subject!
'Perhaps the reason for Dame Jacqueline's failure to reply was sheer embarrassment. According to Random House sources, she was unaware of the word's reference to the female genitalia. Her dictionary, The Times was told, listed it as meaning a foolish or despicable person. '
As a child in the Seventies I remember using the word in my mother's presence (who never swears) and she didn't bat an eyelid. We used it in the sense of 'idiot' and never considered that it had an alternative meaning. I think I was about 18 before I discoverd the crasser meaning. My mother, thankfully, remains ignorant!
You could also choose not to discuss sex or sexuality with your children and have them go through life being naive and vulnerable - an informed decision is the only one. But as with sex, you don't bombard them with information in one go. It takes years of gently dolling out the data at a level appropriate to their age, understanding and maturity. Same with language and all its connotations.
It irks me when prime time TV shows discuss sexually transmitted diseases, sexuality issues or other things that may or may not be age appropriate. It's not a matter of not informing children, but easing them into the knowledge at a time when you, as responsible guardian, deem it proper. I do agree with you when you talk about giving words a power they don't warrant but this thread was initially about slotting in an inappropriate word for the intended age group. Great discussion though and very thought-provoking. :-)
My kids know most swear words out there, so do I. I will be perfectly honest and say that I really don't care, I've told them I would rather not hear them and they shouldn't use them when my mother is around, but I am not making a fuss.
As far as writing goes I had this conversation with Carol when I wanted to enter something into last months one word challenge, it had to have a certain word in it to emphasise the situation, I tried at least a dozen other words but they just didn't work.
While I think that there are some words that are possibly best not put in childrens fiction, I can't see why people still get riled about it. If we just let it go then it ultimately loses its power and slips into obscurity.
IG you tend to find that a lot of the stuff that's discussed on daytime tv just goes straight over their heads as they don't want to watch boring programmes anyway. If they do start to listen and ask questions I always try to answer them honestly. Hols had sex ed at 10 and knows quite a bit, she decided to tell me (as I think she thought I didn't know).
I just feel that the more fuss people make the more weight these things carry.[
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article4583223.ece
Sorry, couldn't resist it :)
That's my grandma's middle name. She hated being called that. :) Not as bad as Flora.
To be honest I was an avid reader of the dictionary when I was little. Once I found certain words I would constantly use them and tell me parents "Did you know so and so means so and so?" I would use the words whenever possible and once I found bad words I wouldn't stop using them until I found another word. I was at that questioning age. Usually when I found a bad word I would ask "Why does it mean that? Why does it have to mean that?"
The beautiful thing about language though is that words change their meanings over time.
That's my point, what is offensive now, won't be and will probably be taught in schools in the future.
I admit I wouldn't use it in children's stories, but I'm with Neph - it doesn't really matter. Words have deep meaning, I'm absolutely convinced of that - otherwise, people wouldn't put such faith in the power of prayer and invocations. But the more we make them taboo and naughty, the more children will want to use them. As I said before, it's a simple fact that whenever people of different mother tongues get together, the first things they ask each other are what sh**, a**e or f**k are in each other's languages. It's basic human curiousity and we'll never rid ourselves of that - indeed, why would we want to? It's part of being human and, indeed, sentient.
As for EastEnders having good dialogue - I have to disagree. Emmerdale (my mum watches it, so I see it sometimes) has some good one-liners in it, but EastEnders? 'I'm gonna bloomin' deck you, mister!' is not, no matter which way you turn and twist it, realistic East End vocabulary.
We need to get this into perspective. A word only has meaning if we give it meaning. If we take that meaning away, at least until children are old enough to make up their own minds about such things, then the words are innocent and don't have as much power as they would otherwise have.
One last point - my OH always says that people are only offended if they choose to be. I have to say I agree with him.
I'm sorry, but since this has developed into a frank debate, I must point out that in Manchester (and, until today, I thought all over Britain), a 'dickhead' is most certainly NOT, nor ever will, 'lose its meaning.' What else on Earth could it possibly mean? And to suggest this was used on CBBC is hard to believe.
Having said that, it is extremely eye-opening to hear all these diverse views.
Swearing is uncouth and unnecessary, and not something that should be encouraged. I have one hell of a temper when roused, but I never swear because I don't need to. I used to enjoy watching Billy Connolly when the BBC had better language standards - he was the funniest man I have ever seen. Now I don't enjoy his act, not least because if you count them up, more than half the words he uses are swear words, and swear words, especially repeated over and over, are just not funny.
I, for one, am totally against swearing in children's books, am glad to see something has been done about it in this case, and really can't see how it got in there in the first place - even if the author was unaware of its meaning, surely there was an editor involved at some point?
My son's just moved up to middle school (9-13) and when you walk down the alleyway after school in the midst of them, all you hear are swear words. So removing one mild one from one book is a drop in the ocean. All we can do as parents is try to discourage our children from using them, but we can never stop them from hearing them.
I'm not prudish about swearing at all. In the right context it can be used very effectively, but overuse corrupts the language.
But littering stories with expletives isn't needed, I agree.
I brought the topic up in a meeting today - all females. One knew the offensive meaning of the word, three considered it a swear word but didn't know the meaning, three genuinely thought it an innocuous word and one said she uses it freely in everyday speech if she thinks someone has done something daft even though she does not swear. (Interestingly the one who knew the meaning was from the South of England.;) )
I have heard the word used by children in the carelessly affectionate way of "don't be silly" - it's quite apparent that there are regional variations in acceptance and knowledge of meaning - this may be hard to accept by those who have always known the meaning but it definitely appears to be the case.
Carol- you, Jacqueline Wilson and many others were not alone :)
The thing with swear words is that most of them used to be used as common words. So what's in Shakespeare isn't swearing, it's just how they talked. I wonder what words we use now will become swear words in 500 years?
At the shops yesterday some middle aged guy was f-ing down his mobile phone. I just don't think it's necessary.
The mental image I just got from that was so wrong on so many levels it's untrue!!!